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captqueeze

Cast Lead Bullets +

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I do know that various types of paint can dry so that they still have the ability to set even harder after a few days. This could become a sealant that could raise chamber pressures quite a bit. Military loadings often use a mouth sealant, which is factored in to how the load is developed.

 

Until I saw some pressure chamber results, between normal lubing and using Powder Coated slugs, I would be very hesitant to allow it to be shot in our club's matches. Why add something that is not even discussed in loading manuals to the mix that is reloading? Your are treading on new ground, but so far have not given much proof that it is safe under most possible ways in which it might be used.

 

Good luck, GJ

Garrison Joe;

You raise some excellent questions, uninformed questions, but good questions. This and like products have been used in ALL the alphabet sanctioned matches, specifically the Hi Tek coating for over 20 years. Started in Australia I think. Do you know of Jerry Miculek? Well he and his brother Donnie coat and sell the Hi Tek on their bullets. I'm not saying that this is the only way to load cast Lead bullets, but it sure is free from any lube messes(gunk on your hands and inside your jDies) and you won't believe how clean they shoot. Do yourself a favor and google Hi Tek .

Capt

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This coating will make it impossible for the loading table officer to ensure the ammunition is legal.

 

This is one of my concerns also. It is not likely that one would paint/coat a jacketed bullet, but if someone did that could be a safety problem with closer target distances used in CAS.

 

JSS

 

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Impossible Mr Barleycorn, IMPOSSIBLE! If a "loading table officer" was armed with a pocket knife and sufficiently capable i.e. have the dexterity to use said tool, he/she could simple scrape a small spot off the coating. Why don't you do yourself a favor and simply Google this "new" (been used for over 20 years) method of lubing cast Lead and see how IDPA and the other alphabet shooting organizations handle the situation.

Better yet let's all forget about my posting of this technique and then you can keep on loading cast the "old fashioned" way continually exposing yourself to Lead and the goop you slather on it for lube and I will continue to have clean hands, Dies, and barrels. I.E. let's simply agree to disagree on the subject.

Capt

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I don't think a loading table officer should have to be burdened with cutting/scrapping into shooters ammo.

If a shooters rifle/pistol ammo is not clearly identifiable as legal then there's a problem.

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And there you have it. I assume you must be a "loading table monitor (officer)? I guess you can't even trust your fellow SASS members to be honest, right?

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The very top picture is after sizing. As far as thermoplastic or thermoset , I haven't a clue. It's HF PC paint, that's all I know.

Capt

So those in the top picture bullets were sized after the PC spray'n then.

That's interesting, as I would have thought one would see rub marks on the sides from going through the die.

LG

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Sizing really doesn't do much to the coating at all. I thought it (the PC) would crack and flake off, but it doesn't. It's interesting stuff.

Capt

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I trust them fine, but I will not sacrifice the safety of other shooters and spectators.

Concerns dully noted. For over TWENTY years this Hi Tek coating has been used WITHOUT a problem, but if you must protest, so be it. I'll let others make up their own minds. And, if I understood your major concern, why would ANYONE Powder Coat a Jacketed bullet? What could be gained; I fail to see a relevant connection. I guess I could if you could explain the "advantage gained" by anyone shooting SASS.

At any rate, nice talking with you, and you should move on Pardner.

Capt

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Thank you for your approval Mr Barleycorm. Move on at your own pace.

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Sorry captqueeze, but as a guest on the SASS Wire Forum, you need to show some respect for SASS members. John Barleycorn has been an active member of this forum, as well as a SASS Range Officer, and multi time FCGF Champion shooter. As such, his opinion is highly valued, and his observations are completely correct.

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I accept your apology Sgt. Campbell. First off Mr Barleycorn was the first to " not show respect", I was merely responding to a negative remark. Secondly I have found that indeed PC'd bullets ARE accepted in SASS Sanctioned Matches as of the printing of SASS Regulations Version #19, at least the latest printed version of SASS Regulations concerning ammunition.

So, either my information is incorrect or Mr. Barleycorn, although well intention'd , is not up to snuff on regulations. If I'm wrong, I apologize to Mr Barleycorn. I would like the same consideration.

Capt

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Howdy:

 

There is a COMPLETE and lengthy discussion of Paint/polymer coated bullets in the Cast Boolit web sight. As to the question of folks painting copper jacketed etc - really? While there may be some dolts who would try this (stupidity knows no limits) I would sooner expect some clow to use gas checks (no wasy to discene that either now is there? Or, drilling out the centers of lead bullets and implanting steel cores (again no way to discerne that ) - Capt is not displaying anything new - it has been around for 20 years and is very prominent in Australia (you know kangaroos etc). Europe uses them also - this is safe technology and no one is going to ne harmed by paint chips, high pressure or idiots trying to beat the system (some might call them super stupid gamers).....Just my two cents However, there are noodle heads that from time to time think they can beat the system with gas checks and other dull witted violations. You can't cure stupid or fix dumb.

 

STL Suomi

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I made no remarks as to legality of the bullets in question. I simply stated that the loading table officer has no way of determining without cutting or scraping that the ammo in question are cast bullets, and that IS a problem. You disagree, and if your club feels they are within the SASS rules go ahead, you don't need my permission and you know that. I sold over 2 million cast bullets in the last 7 years, and I never had a single request for coatings discussed here.

 

You have talked down to several of us and you got called on it. Telling Pards to "move on" or "do yourself a favor" is simply rude and I'm sure you know that.

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Actually I only told one Pard to move along, and that was you Mr Barleycorn. Really wish I hadn't said that, at least in that form. You apparently failed to read the part about " let's simply agree to disagree" . You have an opinion and I have an opinion; now apparently SASS has an opinion. Also, Mr Barleycorn, I have noticed, in re-reading this entire thread that there haven't been "several" that I have (in your words) talked down to, unless your definition of "several" is two. And I did so to make a point. If I REALLY was to place a "social" definition, no, no I'm not going to go there. I would have definitely apologized to you Mr. Barleycorn if you had been right about SASS Regulations/Rules concerning ammunition. So Mr Barleycorn, I bid you adieu.

Capt

 

PS These coatings need to be used to fully appreciate their properties.

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I made no remarks as to legality of the bullets in question. I simply stated that the loading table officer has no way of determining without cutting or scraping that the ammo in question are cast bullets, and that IS a problem. You disagree, and if your club feels they are within the SASS rules go ahead, you don't need my permission and you know that. I sold over 2 million cast bullets in the last 7 years, and I never had a single request for coatings discussed here.

 

You have talked down to several of us and you got called on it. Telling Pards to "move on" or "do yourself a favor" is simply rude and I'm sure you know that.

 

I'm sorry Mr Barleycorn, I meant to ask if you have inquired as to how other Range/Loading Table Officers determine whether the ammo used is cast bullets? This could help you out when some arrive to shoot a match with "spray painted bullets". I've asked and apparently it isn't an issue or I just haven't asked the right people.

 

Capt

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I have not asked LTO's how they determine if a bullet is cast. Why would I? That was until your cherry bombs showed up. I have never seen a cowboy action shooter bring ammunition to the loading table that was not easily identifiable as anything but hard cast lead alloy. If and when a Pard shows up with ammunition that can not visually (solid color, non-opaque) be determined to be SASS legal and I'm working the loading table they better be prepared to show me, and the match director whats under that coating.

 

Its kinda like the copper washed bullets, sure they are perfectly safe to shoot steel with. The problem is that if they were allowed the possibility for a like colored (jacketed) bullet could easily slip past the LTO. As a previous poster pointed out there are persons out there that do not possess the knowledge to replicate this bullet. Heck some jack-wagon may just spray paint bullets or dip loaded rounds in paint to make a pretty bullet like yours. They sure do look pretty, and I will agree, I bet they are an improvement over cast. They just pose a safety problem to shooters, and spectators. Have you been to a SASS match and been hit with big splash back? Its not fun. We are all safety officers when we are on the range.

 

PS. Just call me John or JB. Mr Barleycorn is way too formal.

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I agree with everything you have said, except one little sentence Mr Barleycorn, "They just pose a safety problem to shooters, and spectators". That I don't agree with. I don't think SASS would have included the PC coated cast Lead Bullets as acceptable for their matches if there was the slightest concern of safety. And yes I have been and am planning to attend the shootout at Woolaroc in Oklahoma this spring. Beautiful venue.

Regards

Capt

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Your correct, I'll clarify. I do not think the bullet in and of itself is unsafe. It's the "what's under there" factor, and dimwits trying to make there own version with the wrong material, or I don't know, lay it on too thick?

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Have you shot them?

I'd guess he'd have to wait for a zombie outbreak before he could try them.

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I made no remarks as to legality of the bullets in question. I simply stated that the loading table officer has no way of determining without cutting or scraping that the ammo in question are cast bullets, and that IS a problem..

I'd pull my boot knife and skin the bullet. Next problem....

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I'd guess he'd have to wait for a zombie outbreak before he could try them.

Matthew; I plum forgot to fully answer Lil Reds question on whether I had shot the cast Lead Coated Bullets. Of course I have, and as I've described in other posts, the experience is wonderful; no mess, little to no "smoke screen" while shooting and clean up (at least for my guns) is one, two passes with a snakebore (MAX) and the barrel is clean. No Leading or Lead fouling of any kind. As a general rule I load under 1000 ft/sec especially in the (3) 45 ACP's and (2) 45LC Blackhawks I run. Also use them in my 44-40 Levergun. They without exception run clean and with accuracy. I do size them after I have applied the coating and that's actually one way to test to see if the baked finish was properly applied. If not the coating will crack/fracture.

I'm sold on this method of "lubricating" cast Lead Bullets and I don't see me going back to the goop and mess of traditional lubes.

I think you will see a real increase in ALL shooting sports and matches with bullets that have been coated. It's taken 20 years to get here, but it is here.

Capt

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And, if I understood your major concern, why would ANYONE Powder Coat a Jacketed bullet?

Capt

For the same reason Moly is used on jacketed bullets. ;)

LG

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I accept your reasoning LG, didn't occur to me that someone would go to the extra expense and effort to try to gain a very questionable advantage. Have you known of anyone doing that for the purpose of trying to "game" the system? I'd think it would be pretty evident that something was afoot by seeing the bullet imprint on the targets, maybe not. Now for long range targets, I could see some advantage, but not for anything such as 3 gun.

Very interesting LG, made me look up some stuff the precision shooters were/are doing with Moly. I think they found out that they loose velocity with Moly coating.

Capt

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Why would someone powder coat jacketed bullets? Make real pretty Zombie killer bullets.

 

CAS shooting is done at a very close range. Ricochets are a very real problem. The hardness of the bullet will affect its tendency to ricochet. While polymer coatings are softer than copper, some cured epoxy and catalyzed powder coats can be harder than linotype. As such, I understand some ROs concern for their use on some ranges. They need to be comfortable with them.

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I accept your reasoning LG, didn't occur to me that someone would go to the extra expense and effort to try to gain a very questionable advantage. Have you known of anyone doing that for the purpose of trying to "game" the system? I'd think it would be pretty evident that something was afoot by seeing the bullet imprint on the targets, maybe not. Now for long range targets, I could see some advantage, but not for anything such as 3 gun.

Very interesting LG, made me look up some stuff the precision shooters were/are doing with Moly. I think they found out that they loose velocity with Moly coating.

Capt

I shoot Bear Creek moly coated in SASS and am very pleased with them.

They also work very well with BP.

Have you tested your bullets with BP as yet?

Be worth the try.

What will you charge for 500 bullets in .44 cal, sized .430 at 240 gns weight in RNFP shape coated w/PC?

LG

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No smoke huh! Don't worry Capt, I'll make enough smoke for both of us at Pursuit!

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Good one Pulp. Obviously you shoot BP. I haven't gotten there yet, but I enjoy the look, sound, and smell of BP. I haven't tried these in BP yet, I'll see if I can find any info on the matter. See you at Woolaroc!

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I shoot Bear Creek moly coated in SASS and am very pleased with them.

They also work very well with BP.

Have you tested your bullets with BP as yet?

Be worth the try.

What will you charge for 500 bullets in .44 cal, sized .430 at 240 gns weight in RNFP shape coated w/PC?

LG

 

LG;

I don't manufacture or sell my cast Lead coated bullets. There are commercial business's that do. You've undoubtedly heard of the great shooter Jerry Miculek, well he and his brother Donnie do sell them, I think their business is Bayou Bullets. However, there are several others that have them with the Hi Tek coating (Jerry and his brother) , ect. I can't think of the names right off hand but a Google search probably would find them for you.

My Cherry Bombs are going to be fired today, weather permitting.

Capt

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Wow! There's a lot of "attitude" and sarcasm going on here. :angry: Please tone it down or the thread will be closed as heading in a non-productive direction.

 

About moving the thread. If he is making these to sell, he is not allowed to do so on the SASS Wire Forums. He indicated they are for his personal use and, as the post is just for discussion, the main Wire is where it belongs.

 

I've asked a ROC Committee Member and Wire Moderator to check out this thread. I can't copy and paste, so I will give you the gist of his reply. First, refer to post 29 for the rule. Now, the ROC has a caveat to that rule. Metallic coated bullets would be subject to question and inspection as they are visually similar to jacketed bullets. The "jelly bean" colored bullets in non-metallic colors are legal for SASS use.

 

My thought, as a member of the SASS Wire only, in relation to JS Sooner's post is that, a MD can verify the nature of the bullet and whether it will harm the targets before approving it for use at his/her match. Of course, if the ammo proves harmful to targets or posse, it can be prohibited.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I totally agree with the gist of your post Allie. However, "Now, the ROC has a caveat to that rule. Metallic coated bullets would be subject to question and inspection as they are visually similar to jacketed bullets." My question to you is this: Do you mean Metallic coated bullets (those that are plated with say Copper) are illegal to use, or are you saying cast Lead bullets with a Metallic paint (Epoxy) coating are illegal? I agree NO metallic coated (such as plated) should be used, however, "painted" coated Lead bullets that appear Metallic should be of no concern and allowed because based on the Moh's Scale of hardness is of course less than that of Metallic coated bullets. Just looking for a clarification.

This technology has been mainstream for at least 20 years in Australia in sanctioned SASS matches as well as the other alphabet organizations. I neither "manufacture for retail" or otherwise sell my cast Lead bullets; Lead is hard enough to come by on it's own. I was simply doing a "show and tell" for anyone interested in the technique. Want to use them, then by all means use them. If not then don't.

You probably know of Jerry Miculek, one of if not the premier pistol shooter today. He holds numerous national records and I believe professionally shoots for Smith and Wesson. At any rate He and his brother Donnie commercially sell coated bullets (Bayou Bullets) . I believe Jerry is even into 3 gun, but not for sure. This technology IS coming to a Range near you if it isn't already there.

Enjoy the clean no mess loading, clean no mess or fouling (Leading), and the added bonus of LESS LEAD EXPOSURE. I do and so will all who try it.

Capt

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Thank you capt and AM.

I had NO INTENT, to cause any issue in my WTB inquiry. It was just 'off-the-cuff' question is all.

Would be fun to have rounds loaded with red bullets in the gun belt. ;)

I will check Bayou Bullets.

LG

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