Pan lubing and lub cookies

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

I shoot BP almost exclusively. I buy bullets from a friend at a really really reasonable price, so changing to bullets with more lube carrying capability is not an option. I use pan lubing with a BP friendly lube and also add a lube cookie under the bullet. This works great in the pistols (vaqueros/ 45 cowboy special) and rifle (73 in 44-40).

 

The question for the fire --- can I drop the pan lubing and go with just the lube cookie? Just the pan lubing will not work due to leading in the barrels of both pistols and rifle.

 

I can find out by trying it, but I thought I would get some advice first.

 

Chancy

 

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

How bout nothing! I shoot all bp and never use any other lube except what comes on the bullet. IMHO you don't need to mess with any of that stuff the way we shoot. I shoot a 10 or 12 stages match and get NO leading whatsoever.

 

 

 

Now long range BP single shot,,,thats a different story.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I shoot BP almost exclusively. I buy bullets from a friend at a really really reasonable price, so changing to bullets with more lube carrying capability is not an option. I use pan lubing with a BP friendly lube and also add a lube cookie under the bullet. This works great in the pistols (vaqueros/ 45 cowboy special) and rifle (73 in 44-40).

 

The question for the fire --- can I drop the pan lubing and go with just the lube cookie? Just the pan lubing will not work due to leading in the barrels of both pistols and rifle.

 

I can find out by trying it, but I thought I would get some advice first.

 

Chancy

I would drop the 'cookie'.

What brand lube do you use.

IF, your get'n lead without the cookie, there is something else going on.

LG

[Count Sandor, SASS #74075]

Chancy:

What are you using for your pan lube? When I've shot black with either a home made lube recipe I found or with Pearl Lube I haven't had a leading problem with the bullets I get from our mutual friend. I wouldn't think the difference in bullet weight - assuming there is one - would make a significant difference in the size of the grease groove.

 

CS

[John Boy]

J

 

ust the pan lubing will not work due to leading in the barrels of both pistols and rifle.

Like others said . What lube are you using? The lube your using is the cause of the leading or the bullets your buying don't have sufficient lube capacity

A GC in any handgun reload is not needed and a waste of time.

Thousands of reloads later, pan lubing with no grease cookie - zero leading

[Marshal Fire, SASS 10064]

Just a suggestion in another direction.

If your friend is giving you a good deal on your cast bullets, why not buy him a big lube bullet mold to use?

You would have an excellent bullet and he might get a few more customers

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I used to pan lube regular hard cast bullets all the time with a 50/50 mixture of Crisco and paraffin. My experience with the thin lube groove in most hard cast bullets was they did not carry enough of this soft lube to do the job. It was fine in a pistol with its short barrel, but with a rifle the lube would run out about 6 inches from the muzzle. This resulted in hard fouling beginning to build up near the muzzle with a resulting loss of accuracy. In all truth, for most of our shooting it did not really matter, but for those stages where rifle targets were further out or relatively small I would swab out my rifle barrel before shooting the stage to clean out the hard fouling. A couple of patches of my favorite water based BP cleaning solvent did the trick.

 

I also tried some 'BP' bullets that had two skimpy lube grooves, but they did not carry enough lube either.

 

I did a lot of experimenting with lube cookies at this point. The first thing I realized was a card wad had to be seated between the cookie and the powder to keep the lube from adulterating the powder. Without the card I got some erratic ignition. The next thing I noticed was suddenly accuracy went to hell. I could not figure it out until I found some of my bullets had the soft lube cookie firmly glued to the base of the bullet. The lube cookie had made the bullets unstable and they were wobbling. Not tumbling, but wobbling like a lopsided dart, opening up the groups. So the next step was to add a card between the powder and the lube cookie and add another one between the cookie and the bullet. This was successful and accuracy returned, but it was way more work than I wanted to do when loading ammo. Way too many steps. So I went back to no cookies or wads or anything and simply swabbed out my rifle barrel once or twice during the match. Much, much simpler.

 

Going to Big Lube bullets has solved all of this for me. No cookies, no swabbing, just shooting. But I still say if you want to pan lube, a little bit of swabbing of the rifle barrel during the match is a much better solution than adding steps to the loading process.

 

By the way, the Big Lube bullets do carry more lube than is really necessary, but I like them anyway. I even designed one of them.

[Box Herder, SASS 73857]

Plus one for a Big Lube Bullet for my 44 WCF.

 

Fill case with real black in 3F- Bullet touching powder.

 

Shoot, clean and repeat.

 

I can go 6-8 stages with no hang ups.

 

Squirt of water, oil-Ballistol- put away.

 

I have never had a leading problem.

 

Dammmit- keep it smokey.

[Warden Callaway]

Would the individual gun make a difference? The bore on one gun could be rougher or not "seasoned in" than the next. Maybe a good lapping may improve things.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Still wait'n to hear back from the OP here.

One other question for him......

What is the bullet alloy and powder being used?

LG

[Warden Callaway]

Are there any Lee bullet molds that have enough groove to hold enough soft BP lube? 45 Colt, 200g or less.

 

How would you swab out a Marlin between stages? Easy enough to turn out lever screw, pull lever and bolt and push crud out the bore. But even easier to loose screw and ejector.

 

Another cause for leading - Maybe the bullet is too small for the bore?

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Would the individual gun make a difference? The bore on one gun could

be rougher or not "seasoned in" than the next. Maybe a good lapping may

improve things.

Howdy

 

I find the condition of the bore makes little difference. When I first started shooting Black Powder I had read that an old pitted bore was more difficult to clean because the pits hold more fouling and require more elbow grease to clean. So I bought a slightly used Uberti '73 with a nice shiny bore.

 

I have since bought antiques with old, pitted bores. Nothing rougher than an old pitted bore. As long as the rifling is still strong. All my antiques, both revolvers and rifles, shoot just fine with Black Powder. I do not worry about scrubbing every last molecule of fouling out of the pits. After shooting, a few wet patches down the bore is plenty. Once the patch comes back the same uniform gray color, I have removed as much fouling as I am going to without going crazy. The secret is to liberally coat the bore with oil, like Ballistol, after cleaning. Oil will saturate any remaining fouling and once saturated with oil, the fouling cannot draw any more moisture out of the air, ergo no rust.

 

So I am of the opinion that bore condition has little to do with keeping accuracy, as long as you use a bullet that carries enough soft BP lube in the first place.

 

Regarding 'seasoning'; I think that is a lot of hooey. No such thing that I have ever noticed.

 

Are there any Lee bullet molds that have enough groove to hold enough soft BP lube? 45 Colt, 200g or less.

 

 

How would you swab out a Marlin between stages? Easy enough to turn

out lever screw, pull lever and bolt and push crud out the bore. But

even easier to loose screw and ejector.

 

 

Another cause for leading - Maybe the bullet is too small for the bore?

The Big Lube 200 grain J/P 200 was designed specifically as a 200 grain 45 Colt bullet.

 

 

No need to remove anything to swab a rifle between stages. Open the action, insert an empty shell into the action, Close the action. Place a patch into the slotted end of your cleaning rod, do not use a jag. Soak the patch in your favorite water based BP cleaning solution. Twirl the patch down the bore, then remove it. Repeat. The first time you will get black crusty fouling on the patch. After a couple of times the patch will come out wet and gray. You have removed all the fouling and it has accumulated in the empty case in the chamber. Turn the rifle upside down (or sideways in the case of the Marlin) and eject the spent case onto the ground. Watch out for the black, yukky solvent that spills out with the spent case, don't get it on your nice white Tombstone shirt. Close the action and you are ready to shoot some more. Takes maybe five minutes at the most.

 

Regarding leading, for some reason I get absolutely no leading at all when shooting Black Powder. None! Zip! I believe it has to do with the fact that Black Powder burns hotter than Smokeless. Whatever the reason, once I clean the fouling out of my guns, they are clean as a whistle. Never any leading. Not in the bore, not on the face of the cylinder, not down in the revolver chambers where it always hangs out after shooting Smokeless. Never any lead, no matter what diameter bullet I use.

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

Thank you all for responding. I misspoke when I said there was leading. The problem was actually hard fouling. It has been several years since this happened and my memory is a bit vague. From your responses, I have decided on a plan of action. I will work on the pistols first, starting with just pan lubing. If I have problems, I will try a cookie without pan lubing. If that fails, I am back to both pan lubing and a cookie. Then I will try the same approach with the rifle.

 

The lube I am using now is the following recipe:

5 parts bees wax

4 parts olive oil

1 part Crisco

 

Thanks again for your advice,

Chancy

[Count Sandor, SASS #74075]

Chancy:

I have used both of these recipes with success with Holy Black. The second one is more difficult to source because of the mutton tallow. Also have had good luck with Pearl Lube.

 

1/4 Wax bowl ring (these are synthetic wax, not real beeswax)
1 stick canning paraffin
6-8 table spoons olive oil

 

or

1 part mutton tallow

1 part canning paraffin

1/2 part real beeswax This recipe is done by weight, not volume. (credit for this to a shooter with alias "Gatofeo")

 

I have some Pearl Lube on hand if you want to try it, let me know.

 

CS

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Use more Crisco and less olive oil. For some reason, animal fat has worked way better for me than vegetable oils. Also, humidity can be a factor. With a commercial lube like SPG you can do well, except in really dry cool weather. That is where hard fouling in the last few inches of the rifle bore will show up. In humid weather this will not be a problem. That is why I went with bees wax and lamb tallow at a 50/50 mix. YMMV.

[The Shoer 27979]

Use more Crisco and less olive oil. For some reason, animal fat has worked way better for me than vegetable oils. Also, humidity can be a factor. With a commercial lube like SPG you can do well, except in really dry cool weather. That is where hard fouling in the last few inches of the rifle bore will show up. In humid weather this will not be a problem. That is why I went with bees wax and lamb tallow at a 50/50 mix. YMMV.

I agree with Virgil, I use almost a 50/50 mix of Crisco and beeswax and just a little olive oil (5 parts beeswax, 4.5 parts Crisco, .5 parts olive oil) this works for me and I run all day with no problems

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I'm no expert, only been shooting SASS with BP for about 6 years now, but I read and experiment a bit, so here goes. First I'm glad the OP corrected his problem, it is hard fouling and not leading that can be helped with more lube. If you get leading you have another problem(probably too small of a bullet). Second, with pistols you can use most anything and they will work, the barrels are just too short to get the hard fouling, IMHO. Third, it depends on where you live how well things will work. If it is damp outside things will work longer than if it is dry. Fourth,in my opinion, Crisco sucks. I don't even like it for frying stuff, prefer the drainings from cooking bacon. I have read that there just isn't that much animal fat in it anymore, mostly soybean oil. Never checked that out, just didn't work well for me. I personally uses 10 parts beeswax, 6 parts SOFT paraffin(Peak Candle IGI 4630 mix) and 3 parts synthetic 2-stroke oil. Why 2-stroke oil? Did you ever read the back of the bottle? High pressure capability, low carbon and smoke, lubes well under hi-temps. It even smells decent, unlike some oils and greases, mixes well, and is easily available. What's not to like? Just melt it all together and pour it into PVC tubes and it is ready for your sizer. It is sticky enough so that it stays in the lube grooves well, even when shaken around during transport, and yet does not stick to your fingers making a mess. What can I say, I'm lazy. A good example of that is sometimes I will shoot a match, and just put the guns away. 2 weeks later shoot another match, no problems. I even once did it AGAIN and shot a third match, and still everything worked. I know, it goes against all I was taught too, but like I said sometimes I get busy with the 2 kids and just don't clean the guns. And I have NO rust on any of my guns. I do use a softer alloy bullet with larger than usual lube grooves and I personally believe that helps, I SURE don't have time to be putting grease cookies in there as I load on my Dillon 550, and I have to load for 4 people. Anything to speed up the process as long as it works. Is this the only way to go? Of course not, just works for me.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

I'm no expert, only been shooting SASS with BP for about 6 years now, but I read and experiment a bit, so here goes. First I'm glad the OP corrected his problem, it is hard fouling and not leading that can be helped with more lube. If you get leading you have another problem(probably too small of a bullet). Second, with pistols you can use most anything and they will work, the barrels are just too short to get the hard fouling, IMHO. Third, it depends on where you live how well things will work. If it is damp outside things will work longer than if it is dry. Fourth,in my opinion, Crisco sucks. I don't even like it for frying stuff, prefer the drainings from cooking bacon. I have read that there just isn't that much animal fat in it anymore, mostly soybean oil. Never checked that out, just didn't work well for me. I personally uses 10 parts beeswax, 6 parts SOFT paraffin(Peak Candle IGI 4630 mix) and 3 parts synthetic 2-stroke oil. Why 2-stroke oil? Did you ever read the back of the bottle? High pressure capability, low carbon and smoke, lubes well under hi-temps. It even smells decent, unlike some oils and greases, mixes well, and is easily available. What's not to like? Just melt it all together and pour it into PVC tubes and it is ready for your sizer. It is sticky enough so that it stays in the lube grooves well, even when shaken around during transport, and yet does not stick to your fingers making a mess. What can I say, I'm lazy. A good example of that is sometimes I will shoot a match, and just put the guns away. 2 weeks later shoot another match, no problems. I even once did it AGAIN and shot a third match, and still everything worked. I know, it goes against all I was taught too, but like I said sometimes I get busy with the 2 kids and just don't clean the guns. And I have NO rust on any of my guns. I do use a softer alloy bullet with larger than usual lube grooves and I personally believe that helps, I SURE don't have time to be putting grease cookies in there as I load on my Dillon 550, and I have to load for 4 people. Anything to speed up the process as long as it works. Is this the only way to go? Of course not, just works for me.

I still have about a case of Castrol R oil from my 70's motorcycle racing days. I may have to try that in some bullet lube, shooting with the smell of Castrol R sounds like my idea of heaven.

[Warden Callaway]

Mutton tallow? Mutton tallow comes up for a lot of uses besides part of bullet lube recipes. Why would the fat rendered from mutton tallow be any different than other animals? I think somewhere I read it doesn't go rancid? On another forum someone mentioned deer tallow?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Thank you all for responding. I misspoke when I said there was leading. The problem was actually hard fouling. It has been several years since this happened and my memory is a bit vague. From your responses, I have decided on a plan of action. I will work on the pistols first, starting with just pan lubing. If I have problems, I will try a cookie without pan lubing. If that fails, I am back to both pan lubing and a cookie. Then I will try the same approach with the rifle.

 

The lube I am using now is the following recipe:

5 parts bees wax

4 parts olive oil

1 part Crisco

 

Thanks again for your advice,

Chancy

Try a tub of DGL lube.

http://www.midwayusa.com/brand/dgl-lube

Spend your time shoot'n.

Get a tube of bore butter for gun lube.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1073416017/thompson-center-natural-lube-1000-plus-bore-butter-natural-scent-tube

Eezox also works VERY well here too!

LG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Mutton tallow? Mutton tallow comes up for a lot of uses besides part of bullet lube recipes. Why would the fat rendered from mutton tallow be any different than other animals? I think somewhere I read it doesn't go rancid? On another forum someone mentioned deer tallow?

 

There is rumor (I can't verify) that some animal fats hold more moisure. I use tallow made from a leg of lamb. Eat the lamb, save the fat to render tallow. It is pure white stuff. Does it go rancid? I don't know because I freeze the tallow and the lube between pan lubing sessions. I know Crisco will go rancid if you don't freeze it or use it fast enough. Crisco also behaves badly when remelted if it is rancid ... I used to get a seperation of fats.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

At 26.00/lb, I think not! I guess you haven't seen the lube groove on some of the bullets we use.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

At 26.00/lb, I think not! I guess you haven't seen the lube groove on some of the bullets we use.

I agree, hard to beat a BP bullet and lube made to keep it simple I'll spend my time shooting Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

At 26.00/lb, I think not! I guess you haven't seen the lube groove on some of the bullets we use.

Stop cry'n ......Wait till you have to fill 1K, 540gn ,45 cal. Paul Jones Creedmoor's Each C'moor holds about twice what those little bullets do

DGL's price is cheap, when you don't have to go and clean a lead mine out.

My Sharp's cleans with 4 patches(Windex w/vinegar)after shooting all day, using DGL. I also use 3F Goex BP.

 

LG

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Here's a much cheaper/better price on DGL.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/ManufacturersProducts.aspx?MANF=935

 

LG