Long Branch Louie Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 We had a stage today that the rifle portion called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target. Simple enough. A shooter jacked a round out on his rifle string, proceeded to load two, then shoot his make-up round and the bonus target. Several of us thought that should be a procedural because he should have loaded his makeup round, took the shot, then loaded his bonus round, ie., two reloads. His case was the stage didn't say when you had to shoot the bonus so it didn't matter. But the instructions said shoot 9 shots on three tatgets, reload one and shoot the bonus target. To me that means he couldn't load both his makeup shot and the bonus shot at the same time. What say you?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 We had a stage today that the rifle portion called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target. Simple enough. A shooter jacked a round out on his rifle string, proceeded to load two, then shoot his make-up round and the bonus target. Several of us thought that should be a procedural because he should have loaded his makeup round, took the shot, then loaded his bonus round, ie., two reloads. His case was the stage didn't say when you had to shoot the bonus so it didn't matter. But the instructions said shoot 9 shots on three tatgets, reload one and shoot the bonus target. To me that means he couldn't load both his makeup shot and the bonus shot at the same time. What say you?? NO CALL KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 No call..... LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 No call, but this sort of thing should have been caught on the posse leader walk through, where potential issues and the intent of the stage writer may be divined, if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 If it wasn't specifically prohibited in the stage instructions then the reload could have been done at anytime. No Call.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Instructions said shoot nine targets THEN reload! (according to your first sentence) Did he do that? Blackfoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 If it wasn't specifically prohibited in the stage instructions then the reload could have been done at anytime. No Call.... We had a stage today that the rifle portion called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target. What part of this isn't clear as when to reload for the bonus ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Instructions said shoot nine targets THEN reload! Did he do that? Blackfoot We had a stage today that the rifle portion called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target. IF that is how the stage was written, the call would be a "P" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 We had a stage today that the rifle portion called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target. What part of this isn't clear as when to reload for the bonus ? That one is perfectly clear. THEN is the operative word of intent and it's specific enough.I just re=read the OP. The OP says "THEN"..... I'll change my "NO CALL" to a "P". GET A ROPE!;)/> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Branch Louie Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 As I stated in the first post, it did clearly say put nine shots on three targets, reload one and shoot the bonus target. Because it said reload one AFTER the nine shot string, that's why I felt it should be a "P".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 As I stated in the first post, it did clearly say put nine shots on three targets, reload one and shoot the bonus target. Because it said reload one AFTER the nine shot string, that's why I felt it should be a "P".... Well, now you've changed it.... so which was it? Was the "AFTER" you are saying now in the instructions? The shooter did, in fact, reload one AND he shot the bonus AFTER. Where in the preceding sentence does it say THEN reload or AFTER the nine shots are placed THEN reload? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 As I read the OP, P RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 That one is perfectly clear. THEN is the operative word of intent and it's specific enough.I just re=read the OP. The OP says "THEN"..... I'll change my "NO CALL" to a "P". GET A ROPE!;)/>/> No rope for you buddy, you gotta stay & suffer with the rest of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 We had a stage today that the rifle portion called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target. Simple enough. A shooter jacked a round out on his rifle string, proceeded to load two, then shoot his make-up round and the bonus target. Several of us thought that should be a procedural because he should have loaded his makeup round, took the shot, then loaded his bonus round, ie., two reloads. His case was the stage didn't say when you had to shoot the bonus so it didn't matter. But the instructions said shoot 9 shots on three tatgets, reload one and shoot the bonus target. To me that means he couldn't load both his makeup shot and the bonus shot at the same time. What say you?? I DISAGREE that this should be a Procedural pealty or a "P". I think it is a "No Call". The shooter has the option to reload a round jacked out of the weapon whenever he wishes. He did that and at the same time loaded the "bonus" cartridge. Nowhere above in the quoted stage design does it state specifically that he is not allowed to do that and if it doesn't specifically address this issue, then the shooter gets the benefit of any doubt. In this case, this specific scenario was not thought of and included in the stage design as being "illegal". The original stage design says nothing about when a make-up round must be loaded and fired. The shooter did fire his first 9 shots as required, prior to shooting the bonus. Therefore, I believe any reasonable shooter, without sepcific instructions to the contrary (as the OP is stated here, the instructions do not meet the test of "reasonable"), the shooter wins all questionable calls. The instruction, "then" (regarding the bonus cartridge), would be acceptable if there were no make-up cartridges to be loaded and in this case, the term is simply a qualifier to state that the bonus shot occurs at the end. Hinging a 10-second penalty on the word "then," in the heat of battle and with no specific stage instructions clarifiying such a circumstance of when to load a jacked-out round, when under normal circumstances, the shooter may do so anytime, is just wrong, in my opinion. If the shooter realized he'd have to load in two separate steps it would be a better option for the shooter to take a miss for the jacked-out cartridge. Cat Brules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 The stage instructions in the OP "called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target." The shooter had the OPTION to replace the ejected round and fire the 9th shot BEFORE reloading the round for the bonus target. Shooter also had the OPTION to take the MISS for the ejected round and reload a round for the bonus target. Shooter did neither of these...resulting in a PROCEDURAL for failure to shoot the stage as directed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I think it is sad that a simple act such as fixing a ejected round should be joined with a sequential target selection to create a P for a shooter who already is out of sorts due to ejecting a round. I don't think that the "then" should really be interpreted this way. Yet pwb has ruled. If this was my zoo, the call would be "no call" A gun handling question here would a shooter really load one round shoot one round and the load another round to complete a shooting sequence. just my useless 2 cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Well since Palewolf already covered it, I guess it would have to be a P. A stupid penalty to me, but I probably don't shoot there anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 The stage instructions in the OP "called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target." The shooter had the OPTION to replace the ejected round and fire the 9th shot BEFORE reloading the round for the bonus target. Shooter also had the OPTION to take the MISS for the ejected round and reload a round for the bonus target. Shooter did neither of these...resulting in a PROCEDURAL for failure to shoot the stage as directed. I continue to disagree that making a Procedural call for this original topic scenario is correct. Personally, I think calling a Procedural ("P") on this one is like setting a trap for the shooter. Again, I believe it goes beyond being reasonable and acceptable and as such, takes on the mantle of being a poorly-written stage and raises a doubt. I believe the shooter should get the benefit of such doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I continue to disagree that making a Procedural call for this original topic scenario is correct. Personally, I think calling a Procedural ("P") on this one is like setting a trap for the shooter. It goes beyound the pale (no pun) of being reasonable and acceptable and as such, takes on the mantle of being a poorly-written stage and raises a doubt. I believe the shooter should get the benefit of such doubts. Reloading a round to replace the ejected round and firing it is necessary to complete the first part of the rifle shooting sequence ("...nine shots..."). According to the specific stage instructions, that MUST be done prior to loading an additional round for the bonus target. There is NO DOUBT that the shooter did otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 IMO...it is NOT a "poorly written stage"...the shooter handled his rifle "poorly" (i.e. ejecting a round mid-string); as well as making an error in remedying that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Branch Louie Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 Well, now you've changed it.... so which was it? Was the "AFTER" you are saying now in the instructions? The shooter did, in fact, reload one AND he shot the bonus AFTER. Where in the preceding sentence does it say THEN reload or AFTER the nine shots are placed THEN reload? Brother King, I changed nothing, there was not a "then" in the instructions, it clearly stated "load one round and shoot the bonus" after completing the string. Cat, I got to agree with Pale Wolf because that's what I thought also. It's the SHOOTER's fault he jacked out a round, but IMHO, he is making up some time by going ahead and loading two. BTW, no penalty was assessed, I just wanted to learn in case it happened in another match, maybe like a State. Marauder, Sorry you think it was stupid, I guess I'll stick with RRR's opinion, he DOES shoot here and it is a fine match run by fine folks...I didn't write the stage, just trying to learn something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 IMO...it is NOT a "poorly written stage"...the shooter handled his rifle "poorly" (i.e. ejecting a round mid-string); as well as making an error in remedying that situation. Well, I suppose we've said what we have to say regarding this issue. This being a forum, that's what it's about and, opinions vary. So, on to the next one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 When I am in doubt about things like this, I try to simplify them to make things more clear. As the real question is when the round for the bonus target can be loaded, forget about the jacked round. So the question becomes, given the instructions above, shooter picks up his rifle reloading one before firing a single shot, then puts nine on three and one on the bonus. Seems like a clear P to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Guapo Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Cops are child molesters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Key, SASS # 33713 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I hate to seem like a Dofus on this matter but the instructions said: "We had a stage today that the rifle portion called for nine shots on three targets then reload one and shoot a bonus target..." Very straight-forward. The then was certainly spelled out in the original post, duh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Brother King, I changed nothing, there was not a "then" in the instructions, it clearly stated "load one round and shoot the bonus" after completing the string. Now wait just a minute...you just dramatically changed the OP which quite clearly says "THEN* PWB's ruling specificslly refers to IF "THEN". If what you are now saying is accurate THEN...I retract my re-considered call of "P". NO CALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 IMO...it is NOT a "poorly written stage"...the shooter handled his rifle "poorly" (i.e. ejecting a round mid-string); as well as making an error in remedying that situation. God Bless! RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I am new here and not familiar with how things are done yet but unless your shooting for money I do not see why it matters. Are you mad because your meaningless 12th place finished was destroyed by his actions? If your shooting for bragging rights and he bucked you down one place then say you came out it 12th place but it could of been 11th if some guys had done it the way I thought it was supposed to be. If the judge did not disqualify him then he did it right. If you have a complaint then take it up with the judge and rule maker and make sure next time it is more defined. I am under the impression this sport is about the spirit of the game. If it was not decided at the time it happened then complaining about it later disqualifies you from the sport. Majority rule does not change how things should be. Just a newbies opinion, don’t mean to hurt no feelings. Bobby, no, not at all, chances are the poster was just a by stander and had no personal interest in the call, other than wanting to see that a fair call was made. I don't think anyone is complaining, simply trying to determine which was the right call, so that if the situation comes up again he'll know which way to rule. I like to follow these 'you make the call' posts, it makes me think, refer to the rule books, and hopefully helps us all to make uniformly fair calls. Uniform calls on gray areas are important, if that was called a P by that posse, but not by all the rest, then it isn't fair to all shooters. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Ray SASS#33254 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Uniform calls on gray areas are important, if that was called a P by that posse, but not by all the rest, then it isn't fair to all shooters. Grizz Really if you spent 3000 bucks to go to NM an that call moved you from 1st to 12th. Evaone needs to sorta see it tha same, ye see. RRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I must be alittle crazy because I don't see where any 'benefit of doubt' plays any part in favor of the shooter. THERE IS NO DOUBT.....he shot the stage different than the instructions allowed according to the ORIGINAL POST where the word 'THEN' is used which determined the sequences in which the firing and reloading was allowed. Therefore, a 'P' is earned. That was in the ORIGINAL post. The OP now seem to state that the word 'AFTER' was the actual word used and in my humble opinion, would make this a No Call. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Guapo Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Cops are child molesters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I must be alittle crazy because I don't see where any 'benefit of doubt' plays any part in favor of the shooter. THERE IS NO DOUBT.....he shot the stage different than the instructions allowed according to the ORIGINAL POST where the word 'THEN' is used which determined the sequences in which the firing and reloading was allowed. Therefore, a 'P' is earned. That was in the ORIGINAL post. The OP now seem to state that the word 'AFTER' was the actual word used and in my humble opinion, would make this a No Call. ..........Widder To hell with humble opinions.... you're right. Say what you mean or the shooter is under no obligation to divine the stage writer's intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 In a call, the exact stage wording is extremely important. Sometimes how it is read by the PM can change situations like this if the PM does not read the exact wording of the stage, and instead just summarizes it, not recommended but happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 P, based on the wording in the original post... It's not poorly written either to require a certain action to be performed and then another action is to be performed. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Montana, SASS #23907 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I participate in matches at many different ranges in many different states that use stages written in this manner. Procedural is the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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