Marauder SASS #13056 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 The points system looks good to me also. With rank, sometimes a pard could beat someone a significant amount and only get one rank point, then beat them by .01 and still only get one rank point. (That happened when Lead Dispenser was at first on top and beating everyone by over a second or two.) Similarly with total time, if you beat someone on a fast stage, it didn't really matter. With the point system it appears to somewhat expand the scoring similarly to what rank was initially hopped, but even better with the weighting method. But I wonder how some will take it since a miss would still have a varying impact on the score. (oncwe again a fast stage is a little more critical.) Not a problem to me, but it has been so strongly stated by some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Dan, thanks for supporting the Points system. I proposed it to the WB earlier this year and they decided to try it with Wild bunch first. It has been well received. One great feature it has is the ability to score Within Category so every other shooter at the match does not impact your outcome. It doesn't matter whether there are 2 or 2000 shooters its is a straight line. No "bell curve". The A.C.E.S. program already has it and CT Tom has written it into his SASS Scoring program which we used at EOT. We will see where it goes from here. That's the best news I have heard in a long while especially when other catagories won't effect your own race!! Keeping my fingers crossed. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I predict this new scoring system will become the standard soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Derived from IPSC/USPSA again A competitor's score is calculated by adding the highest value stipulated number of hits per target, minus penalties, divided by the total time (recorded to two decimal places) taken by the competitor to complete the course of fire, to arrive at a hit factor. The overall stage results are factored by awarding the competitor with the highest hit factor the maximum points available for the course of fire, with all other competitors ranked relatively below the stage winner. From IPSC Handgun Rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Derived from IPSC/USPSA again A competitor's score is calculated by adding the highest value stipulated number of hits per target, minus penalties, divided by the total time (recorded to two decimal places) taken by the competitor to complete the course of fire, to arrive at a hit factor. The overall stage results are factored by awarding the competitor with the highest hit factor the maximum points available for the course of fire, with all other competitors ranked relatively below the stage winner. From IPSC Handgun Rules And thank you for that BUT........we aren't using "hit factor" because in the above case, penalties SUBTRACT POINTS. In Point Value, penalties ADD TIME. Kinda the same, but not. PV scoring is much simplier for the average shooter to understand. Take your points from each stage and add them to get a total match score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 And thank you for that BUT........we aren't using "hit factor" because in the above case, penalties SUBTRACT POINTS. In Point Value, penalties ADD TIME. Kinda the same, but not. PV scoring is much simplier for the average shooter to understand. Take your points from each stage and add them to get a total match score. Note: the first word was Derived Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Note: the first word was Derived Ok, you got me.....so what was the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Ok, you got me.....so what was the point? No point, just for information only. And it works for IPSC and will work as modified for SASS---I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backshootin beauford mcgee Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I don't like Rank scoring and I will not go to shoots that use it! this new 'points' system sounds better, but frankly 'boycottable' too. I like fastest time and that is what the local clubs do. Guess, I'll just stay home and save the travel money and higher costs for the big shoots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Ahh but there is. It's where we use a timer, a miss = 5 seconds, a P = 10 seconds, and it does not effect categories......it's called Total Time. Even those that defend and try to explain Rank still admit it ain't perfect. TT or Rank, I just wish the MD and host club for regional and above had a choice, just like at a state, annual, or local match. I know of at least one regional that would be TT if allowed. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Why couldn't a local club hosting a regional or above choose to use TT? SASS doesn't own each club,doesn't pay land taxes on the range a local club owns,or the fees to use the facilites a local club shares with other venues.Each SASS member including the board members of a local club pay dues to SASS to be a member.Paying those dues does not mean each member is owned by SASS,so why doesn't or why shouldn't those clubs have the right to choose the scoring system?SASS would still be getting the benefit of having an affiliation with a club wanting to or willing to host a larger match.It would be a win win situation for all if the clubs had that choice.Especially with the new give us $5 per registered shooter thing I heard about...if it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Why couldn't a local club hosting a regional or above choose to use TT? SASS doesn't own each club,doesn't pay land taxes on the range a local club owns,or the fees to use the facilites a local club shares with other venues.Each SASS member including the board members of a local club pay dues to SASS to be a member.Paying those dues does not mean each member is owned by SASS,so why doesn't or why shouldn't those clubs have the right to choose the scoring system?SASS would still be getting the benefit of having an affiliation with a club wanting to or willing to host a larger match.It would be a win win situation for all if the clubs had that choice.Especially with the new give us $5 per registered shooter thing I heard about...if it's true. Because there is this little thing called a contract that the club hosting the regional has to sign and in that contract the type of scoring system is specified......RANK scoring must be used..... Stan - who likes the new point system used for WB at EOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Truly, youth and skill have enough advantages... do they need more? I say let old age and treachery have it's place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E. Law Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Wild Bunch at EOT this year used a system called POINT VALUE. In my mind, it's the best of both scoring systems we use now in SASS. It goes like this: Every target (or bullet that hits a target) is worth 10 points. So, a 10, 10, 4 stage would be (24 X 10) 240 points. The fastest person to shoot this stage would receive the total amount of the points availible. Everyone else will receive a percentage of the total points based on their time. Example: Phantom shoots a stage in 15 seconds AND is the fastest one to shoot that stage. I shoot it at 16 seconds so my percentage would be 15/16 = .9375. Now, total amount of points, say 240 X .9375 = 225 points. This system is a variant of what's used in other action shooting sports and works very well for two reasons: 1. It takes away the arbitrary pentalties for a "fast" stage vs. a "slow" stage. 2. A shooter who crashes on a stage can make up some of what you lost if he pushes on the remaining stages. If a shooter really lays it on the line, they are rewarded for the effort and the chances. I hope they are looking at this scoring system as a possible replacement. Beats the heck out of Rank, and it would settle all the debate between the two camps. Dang It I understand how they are scoring this but I still don't see the point. Total time is still the easiest and fairest way to score a match for each shooter. This point value sounds to much like IPSC scoring which is overly complicated (IMO) and to hard to keep track of your personal score. JEL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 So now instead of two scoring systems to gripe about we'll have three to gripe about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eusta B.Fast Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I understand how they are scoring this but I still don't see the point. Total time is still the easiest and fairest way to score a match for each shooter. This point value sounds to much like IPSC scoring which is overly complicated (IMO) and to hard to keep track of your personal score. JEL Shot IPSC for several years hard cover, soft cover, no-shoots, powerfactors, alpha, charlie, delta, mike, etc etc Cowboy Action Raw time plus penalties. Couldn't be any simpler Each shooter recieves EXACTLY WHAT HE EARNED ! ! Nothing more,,,Nothing less ! like Allie Mo says KISS. Works every time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Actually, I do have a question. Under this point system, how will ties be handled? Under RP, we use TT, under TT, we keep the tie and eliminate the next place. So, will we use TT, or just allow ties and eliminate the next place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 This point value sounds to much like IPSC scoring which is overly complicated (IMO) and to hard to keep track of your personal score. JEL I think that's part of the allure......using a points system one could not simply add up the times off the sheets that are posted to allow shooters to verify their scores to find out who won BEFORE the awards ceremony. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossfire Brown Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I understand how they are scoring this but I still don't see the point. Total time is still the easiest and fairest way to score a match for each shooter. This point value sounds to much like IPSC scoring which is overly complicated (IMO) and to hard to keep track of your personal score. JEL +1 CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eusta B.Fast Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I think that's part of the allure......using a points system one could not simply add up the times off the sheets that are posted to allow shooters to verify their scores to find out who won BEFORE the awards ceremony. Stan very possible brings me back to my last line at post #21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Sounds great in a perfect world, but it might be fun to know who won the monthly before New Years Day gets here. Who in the heck is gonna do the math? I'll just keep going to matches no matter the system. Been helped and burned by both. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Actually, I do have a question. Under this point system, how will ties be handled? Under RP, we use TT, under TT, we keep the tie and eliminate the next place. So, will we use TT, or just allow ties and eliminate the next place? Ye lost me on this'un. Are you saying that with TT and a tie you have two co-champs and no second place just two number ones and third? Never heard of this happening even at places that use TT. Never heard of co-champs at a match. Either it has never happened or there is another criteria used to break ties. Such as least misses or some such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Ye lost me on this'un. Are you saying that with TT and a tie you have two co-champs and no second place just two number ones and third?Never heard of this happening even at places that use TT. Never heard of co-champs at a match. Either it has never happened or there is another criteria used to break ties. Such as least misses or some such. I couldn't say if it's ever happened for a top shooter's spot, but down in the ranks, not really rare, nor unlikely. Maybe some of those that use it will chime in with how they handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I understand how they are scoring this but I still don't see the point. Total time is still the easiest and fairest way to score a match for each shooter. This point value sounds to much like IPSC scoring which is overly complicated (IMO) and to hard to keep track of your personal score. JEL This is about as easy as it gets and it is NOT like IPSC. But hey, here is really what we are talking about: Will Obama ever vote for welfare reform?.......NO. Will the sun ever set in the EAST?.............NO. Will Total Time ever be used at EOT?...........NO. So, given the facts, TT is NOT a consideration, not now, not ever. We had better get behind this scoring system or we will be stuck with Rank Point from this day forth. At least we have a shot with Point Value. We have NO shot with TT. That's all I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Actually, I do have a question. Under this point system, how will ties be handled? Under RP, we use TT, under TT, we keep the tie and eliminate the next place. So, will we use TT, or just allow ties and eliminate the next place? Ye lost me on this'un. Are you saying that with TT and a tie you have two co-champs and no second place just two number ones and third? Never heard of this happening even at places that use TT. Never heard of co-champs at a match. Either it has never happened or there is another criteria used to break ties. Such as least misses or some such. I couldn't say if it's ever happened for a top shooter's spot, but down in the ranks, not really rare, nor unlikely. Maybe some of those that use it will chime in with how they handle it. OR State Championship - 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowhand,SASS#63559 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Actually, this is a senseless post/topic. Nothing is going to change...so why even discuss it. Most reasonable people will shoot a match regardless of the scoring method used...though the arguement that neither is "Perfect" is silly too as at least the best of the worst should be employed. I agree with Phantom! Besides ......no matter what or who, FASTEST WINS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eusta B.Fast Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 Thanks to all for your input on rank scoring. I learned a great deal from this thread. In all the years I have shot this sport, I was never exposed to rank until spring of this year at a club annual. I knew that it existed from the SASS manuals, but never knew or cared about exactly what it was. From what I have learned here, I at least understand the basis for which it came to be. I love this sport a great deal, and will play it as long as I am able. Its greatnes comes from its participants, not from the game itself. At least we agree to disagree, and keep on keeping on with support for game. Thanks again to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.