Slow Poke Joe Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 I went to the post office to ship a shotgun to a well known gunsmith for action work. They would not do it because I'm not an FFL holder! I told them that I've shipped long guns through the PO a thousand times,,,,,, well maybe 8 or 10, and never had a problem. They showed me the law in the PO's hand book and, sure enough, it stated that BOTH parties have to be FFL holders! Went to UPS and had no problem.
JD Trampas, SASS # 55781 Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 I have never had any problems with them shipping long guns, I'm not a FFL either, sorry you had trouble All for now JD Trampas
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 I'd be interested in seeing that law they showed you.
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Only FFLs can ship handguns using USPS. Citizens can ship long guns using USPS. --Dawg
Slow Poke Joe Posted January 13, 2012 Author Posted January 13, 2012 Actually, that has always been my experience. To make matters worse, I went to the same branch I have always used! The Postmaster was very nice about it, even going so far as to show me the handbook which clearly states that both the sender and the receiver must be FFL holders. I was disturbed by the change, but he assured me that this has been the policy for years. I know that I never had a problem before this!
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Actually, that has always been my experience. To make matters worse, I went to the same branch I have always used! The Postmaster was very nice about it, even going so far as to show me the handbook which clearly states that both the sender and the receiver must be FFL holders. I was disturbed by the change, but he assured me that this has been the policy for years. I know that I never had a problem before this! From the ATF website Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service? A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. [18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)] From the USPS regs 11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.
Two Gun Johnnie Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Is that law relating to "selling" the long guns, or shipping to a gunsmith for repair or work? Its not very clear to me. Two Gun
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Is that law relating to "selling" the long guns, or shipping to a gunsmith for repair or work? Its not very clear to me. Two Gun I obviously picked these etatements out of context, but additional reading on the websites seem to support my use of them. The regs, as I read them, refer to "residents". I see nothing that would restrict these transfers to gunsmiths, dealers, or any other sub-group. I have had no issue with my local PO shipping long guns out of state to FFL's. I have not shipped in-state from resident to resident without involving an FFL, but would feel comfortable doing so. There are special provisions to facilitate firearms being shipped for repair, but they are covered elsewhere.
Slow Poke Joe Posted January 13, 2012 Author Posted January 13, 2012 Mack, I appreciate your comments. That has always been my understanding. Maybe my local PO's postmaster is in error. Well, ai least I'm not too far from a UPS hub. Thanks. Joe
Guest Chief Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 Mack, I appreciate your comments. That has always been my understanding. Maybe my local PO's postmaster is in error. Well, ai least I'm not too far from a UPS hub. Thanks. Joe
Guest Chief Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 It is getting harder to ship firearms through any carrier, Just sold a pistol to a gentleman in Ill. went through my FFL dealer got all the proper papers, Mailed it Priorty Mail Insured to his ffl, was suspposed to get there in 3 days at most. long story took 10 days, it went from new mexico to texas then to Ca. and the last 4 days it took to get to Ill. Found out that a normal citizen can not track a package by the ins nr, only the P.O. can. Next time I believe I just might get an airline ticket and deliver it my self Chief
Diamond S Doug Posted January 13, 2012 Posted January 13, 2012 When I shipped a long gun to a smith neither the local USPS or UPS or FedUP would take them since I was not an FFL. So I went to a FFL had him ship them out and they came back to my house directly shipped via UPS. Go figure.
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 I went to the post office to ship a shotgun to a well known gunsmith for action work. They would not do it because I'm not an FFL holder! I told them that I've shipped long guns through the PO a thousand times,,,,,, well maybe 8 or 10, and never had a problem. They showed me the law in the PO's hand book and, sure enough, it stated that BOTH parties have to be FFL holders! Went to UPS and had no problem. If they showed you the PO's handbook I guess it's a new rule or the handbook was either wrong or "outdated" one of the 3, I use the post office as little as possible these days. Rye
Charlie Whiskers Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 Just received a shotgun today from Free Bird in Wisconsin.Bought it from him out of the SASS classifieds.He's not a dealer just another Cowboy.I am a dealer.He mailed it out priority and insured through the PO and had no trouble doing it.Just don't mark the shipping box in anyway that indicates it's a FIREARM.I use the PO almost exclusivley over UPS or Fed Ex.Fed Ex is OK if you're a distributor it seems,but for a small dealer or "Joe Blow" they have their heads in a body orifice that makes daylight and breathing next to impossible to obtain.Same for UPS outlets.
Matthew Duncan Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 I went to the post office to ship a shotgun to a well known gunsmith for action work. They would not do it because I'm not an FFL holder! I told them that I've shipped long guns through the PO a thousand times,,,,,, well maybe 8 or 10, and never had a problem. They showed me the law in the PO's hand book and, sure enough, it stated that BOTH parties have to be FFL holders! Went to UPS and had no problem. How did they know what you were mailing?
Charlie Whiskers Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 How did they know what you were mailing? I keep a copy of my FFL on file at my closest PO.When anyone mails anything boxed they ask the standard 200 questions.So I tell them what it is,how much I want to insure it for and how I want it sent.They all ask.PO,UPS,and Fed EX.So I tell them the truth.Why....well,with UPS or Fed Ex,if it's insured then lost,stolen or damaged;and you go to file a claim and it's not shipped as a firearm,they can deny the claim.That's why I tell them anyway.Not sure why Slow Poke did.Other than he's an honest person.
John Boy Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 http://www.cgwgun.com/shipping/usps.aspx 11.3 Rifles and Shotguns Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e. Having shipped many long arms to FFL's or manufacturers using the USPS, only once did a clerk want to see the Ship To's FFL. I always send them Priority Mail - Insured and Return Receipt Delivery Confirmation. The latest was 3 Jan 2012 to SKB in Omaha NE from NJ, insured for $500 for the pricey sum of $27.15 No questions asked, hassle or unloaded certification request by the clerk. And she knew it was a long arm because I told her. Then I handed her the Henry going to Bayonne, NJ Distance from home is 82 miles and it cost me $23.00
Matthew Duncan Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 Rifle and cardboard box went in a custom made wood box In the box I placed a letter stating I was the Seller, my address, serial number and model of the rifle. Purchaser FFL sent me a copy of his license which I also placed in the box USPS Clerk ask the standard explosive/flammable questions and I answered, "Nope". Clerk then ask me if I had a guitar in there. I answered, "No" Must have been the look I gave her when I said no because she stop asking questions Emailed the tracking number to the Purchaser I didn't read anything in the USPS regulations stating that it was required you tell then what you were mailing!
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 USPS regulations regarding long guns: 11.3 Rifles and Shotguns Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e. a. Subject to state, territory, or district regulations, rifles and shotguns may be mailed without restriction when sent within the same state of mailing. These items must bear a “Return Service Requested” endorsement, and must be sent by Express Mail (“signature required” must be used at delivery) or Registered Mail, or must include either insured mail service (for more than $200) requiring a signature at delivery. b. A shotgun or rifle owned by a non-FFL may be mailed outside the owner’s state of residence by the owner to himself or herself, in care of another person in the state, where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. These mailpieces must: 1. Be addressed to the owner. 2. Include the “in the care of” endorsement immediately preceding the name of the applicable temporary custodian. 3. Be opened by the rifle or shotgun owner only. 4. Be mailed using services described in 12.2a. c. Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in 12.2a. d. Except as described in 12.1.2a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to FFL licensed curio and relic collectors in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in 12.2a. e. Firearms that are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without restriction. f. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearm under 12.1.1a are mailable. A shipment containing an air gun with a muzzle velocity of 400 or more feet per second (fps) must include an Adult Signature service under 503.8.0. Mailers must additionally comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 Shipping Using The Post Office I've never used 'em... cause I didn't know if they had any ships. ts
Llama Ron Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 Total B.S. on the postmaster's part!! this has been a long, drawn out discussion/complaint on ARFCOM. Bottom line is that the usps has some idiots on the payroll that have no clue of the actual law. I've shipped several through usps...priority w/ tracking, ins and delivery confirmation. I have NEVER told them it was a firearm! You don't have to, and shouldn't. If pressed, the answer is 'machine parts'. For a handgun, an FFL is needed to ship via usps. They have a very generic form that they give to them when they ship it. I have done this for a friend who is a gunsmith and has an FFL, acting as his agent, which is perfectly legal as well. Usually the postal dude/dudette looks at the form and say's 'here- just hang on to this...' and hands it back. If sending UPS or FedEx, then you're supposed to tell them. why not just write 'there is a gun in this box. Please steal it.'
Llama Ron Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 I wish Bin O'Bama would just dissolve the ATF along with it's antiquated, nonsense rules and regulations altogether as a 'tax-saving' move... geez...don't get me started...
Matthew Duncan Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 ... If pressed, the answer is 'machine parts'.... If I was "pressed" I would continue to stand there and not answering!
Bad Hand Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 If I was "pressed" I would continue to stand there and not answering! This is for you and all the "machine parts" advocates: http://www.ledgernews.com/news/503-march-17-2010/1722-three-canton-residents-sentenced-in-federal-gun-trafficking-case Scroll down and see what "Quinn" was convicted of.
The Shoer 27979 Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 This is for you and all the "machine parts" advocates: http://www.ledgernews.com/news/503-march-17-2010/1722-three-canton-residents-sentenced-in-federal-gun-trafficking-case Scroll down and see what "Quinn" was convicted of. I read that as more of straw purchases and gun smuggling
Bad Hand Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 I read that as more of straw purchases and gun smuggling There were several charges, but read what "Quinn" was convicted of: Quinn was arrested and pleaded guilty to conspiring to unlawfully deal in firearms and to cause firearms to be shipped without notifying the contract carrier. That investigation led to the arrest of four men in Vallejo for unlawfully receiving those firearms. A separate federal case is being prosecuted against those four defendants
Matthew Duncan Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 This is for you and all the "machine parts" advocates: http://www.ledgernew...rafficking-case Scroll down and see what "Quinn" was convicted of. Sir, Please quote me (from the USPS regulations) the requirement that USPS shall be informed on what you are shipping. Thank you.
Bad Hand Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 Sir, Please quote me (from the USPS regulations) the requirement that USPS shall be informed on what you are shipping. Thank you. The various regulations of the postal service, UPS, and FedEx, have been posted and debated numerous times on this forum and others. I'm not a lawyer, nor even a "sea lawyer" and I really don't care if you violate Federal Law when you ship your "machine parts, high speed hole driller" or any other firearm without declaring it. The fact is that Quinn was convicted in Federal court of conspiring to cause firearms to be shipped without notifying the contract carrier. You may interpret the regulations and tariffs anyway you want to but it looks like it is settled case law to me. I would encourage everyone not to brag about their shipping techniques, nor encourage others to follow their example.
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 The various regulations of the postal service, UPS, and FedEx, have been posted and debated numerous times on this forum and others. I'm not a lawyer, nor even a "sea lawyer" and I really don't care if you violate Federal Law when you ship your "machine parts, high speed hole driller" or any other firearm without declaring it. The fact is that Quinn was convicted in Federal court of conspiring to cause firearms to be shipped without notifying the contract carrier. You may interpret the regulations and tariffs anyway you want to but it looks like it is settled case law to me. I would encourage everyone not to brag about their shipping techniques, nor encourage others to follow their example. Sage advice!
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