Ironhorse McClain Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I was at an annual match a while back and saw something i had never seen before.A shooter was in the middle of their pistol sequence and unfortunatly after two rounds out of the 2nd pistol,the cylinder would not rotate.The shooter yelled help and the guy running the timer assisted the shooter to advance the cylinder.This confused me as I was under the impression if you had a malfunction of this sort,you lay the pistol down on the table or hand it off.Could someone educate me on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Depends on what the "malfunction" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhorse McClain Posted October 29, 2011 Author Share Posted October 29, 2011 Depends on what the "malfunction" is. I,m pretty sure in this case it was probably a high primer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Range Officer’s Motto:THE PURPOSE OF THE RANGE OFFICER IS TO SAFELY ASSIST THE SHOOTER THROUGH THE COURSE OF FIRE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I,m pretty sure in this case it was probably a high primer The shooter could've declared the malfunction and handed the gun off or laid it safely down on a prop. Since he "yelled for help" the RO safely assisted him, as PWB stated. Just depends on the situation and how good the TO is in knowing the rules, the firearm malfunction and if the shooter has indicated they need help. Good for both of them as they worked as a team during the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 The purpose of the range officer is to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire. As a TO. I have muscled open reluctant SxS, I have advanced cylinders, I have forced 97 bolts forward and carriers upward to allow the action to work. I have held up falling pistol belts with broken buckles and held up wobbly shooters by their suspender straps. The day comes that I am told that I cannot assist the shooter as I see needed is the day I hand off the timer and never touch it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhorse McClain Posted October 29, 2011 Author Share Posted October 29, 2011 Thanks Fellers,As I stated,I was just confused on this matter.From a personal aspect,I was very glad it turned out that way simply because the shooter in this situation was a super person and and I was proud to have been on the same posse.Another reason I'm glad to know this is the person that usually has gun trouble is ME.Thanks to all who hollerd back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Palewolf, Blastmaster and Creeker... THERE WORDS HAVE IRON Rance Thinkin' they could all TO fer me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Palewolf, Blastmaster and Creeker... THERE WORDS HAVE IRON Rance Thinkin' they could all TO fer me Thanks Cowboy Rance. I truely appreciate what you just said. You made my day. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Must have been shooting gunfighter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 TO may provide assistance, but not ammunition, which must come from the shooter's body. If shooter was a gunfighter and just needs an extra hand, that's easy. TO should not tackle anything they don't really understand, as it is hard to explain to a shooter that you used up 25 seconds and STILL didn't get the gun to work. "Know your limitations". And, in WB, you cannot "take over" someone's firearm to fix it. Advice only. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Thanks Cowboy Rance. I truely appreciate what you just said. You made my day. Blastmaster Oh Lord he will have to buy a new hat now, thanks Rance. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Oh Lord he will have to buy a new hat now, thanks Rance. KK Or take the tissue out from underneath the hat band. How is it going KK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Or take the tissue out from underneath the hat band. How is it going KK? Not bad looking forward to getting back across the mountains to shoot with you guys and gals. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Today a shooter had the base pin jump forward on Ruger after a round or two down range. Acourse gun would not cock. Spotter (me) and TO began to yell push your base pin in. Shooter could not grok or hear us and appeared to be dumbfounded. TO reached around and snikked the pin in with thumb and forefinger. Shooter continued to march. Much better than taking 3 misses, especially if a clean match is the goal. Way to go TO, that's how it's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouchy Spike Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 A shooter has an equipment malfunction during a course of fire and requests help, and the TO is able to help the shooter overcome the malfunction. With a different TO on the same posse, another shooter has an equipment malfunction, requests help, and the TO is UNable to help the shooter overcome the malfunction and the shooter incurs a penalty. One shooter had the benefit of knowledgeable assistance, the other didn't. Is the unassisted shooter entitled to a reshoot? Or is it considered good luck for one shooter and bad luck for the other, fair to both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 A shooter has an equipment malfunction during a course of fire and requests help, and the TO is able to help the shooter overcome the malfunction. With a different TO on the same posse, another shooter has an equipment malfunction, requests help, and the TO is UNable to help the shooter overcome the malfunction and the shooter incurs a penalty. One shooter had the benefit of knowledgeable assistance, the other didn't. Is the unassisted shooter entitled to a reshoot? NO Or is it considered good luck for one shooter and bad luck for the other, fair to both? bug vs windshield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Or is it considered good luck for one shooter and bad luck for the other, fair to both? There are good spotters and poor spotters. There are every skill level of Timer Operators as well. When those good spotters catch a edge hit that the poor spotters would have missed - it is just good luck. When the poor spotters miss the "P" you earned, the same "P" the good spotters would have seen - it is just good luck. Some TO's will try to go above and beyond the minimum, some will only do the minimum. But as long as they safely get the shooter through the stage; that is all you can ask for - any more than that is just good luck. Or to put it another way - I miss my holster with my pistol and the TO catches it. Doesn't hit the ground, doesn't break the 170. Good luck for me and I owe the TO a soda. But anyone else at the shoot who missed their holster and had a slower TO doesn't get a reshoot. I was just lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouchy Spike Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I agree, and it's good to have a consensus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Graham, # 26112 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 There is nothing better as a TO than being able to save a shooter from a dropped gun. It just don't get any better, especially at a major match. Saving them from a "P" is good, seeing the big grin after you coach and reassure a new shooter through the first stage ever is good but saving the dropped gun is best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 What about a screwdriver,can the T.O give you a hand with one from his person? El Muerto Negro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 What about a screwdriver,can the T.O give you a hand with one from his person? El Muerto Negro In my opionion....YES! Blaastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 There is nothing better as a TO than being able to save a shooter from a dropped gun. It just don't get any better, especially at a major match. Saving them from a "P" is good, seeing the big grin after you coach and reassure a new shooter through the first stage ever is good but saving the dropped gun is best. One of my all time personal favorites was when this lady om my posse came up to me on the last stage (club annual size match) and asked if I would TO her because she had a clean match going (1st in her life too) and just needed to get through the last stage which was a hair more difficult that the others. I told her YES,,,, I can do that and WE will get through the stage clean together. WE did and she was tickled and joyful to a degree you would have never imagined. BTW, she didn't place in her catagory, but she WON ,,, big time in her eyes and mine....and the possee went wild upon her successful completion of the last stage!!! Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 What about a screwdriver,can the T.O give you a hand with one from his person? El Muerto Negro Does SASS rules state that a TO can not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Or to put it another way - I miss my holster with my pistol and the TO catches it. Doesn't hit the ground, doesn't break the 170. Good luck for me and I owe the TO a soda. But anyone else at the shoot who missed their holster and had a slower TO doesn't get a reshoot. I was just lucky. Is there more to that story? Did the revolver leave your hand(s) and missed the holster and was no longer in YOUR control and the TO caught it before touching the ground? I would think that would be a dropped unloaded revolver and you should've earned the penalty regardless of the TO catching it. Correct me if I am wrong. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ... I would think that would be a dropped unloaded revolver and you should've earned the penalty regardless of the TO catching it. Correct me if I am wrong. Blastmaster IMHO (didn't take the time to reread the 3 different rule books). A falling gun (loaded or unloaded) ain't unsafe. It's when it comes in contact with something (or someone) that could cause the gun to cause damage. If you fall off a 100 foot roof, it ain't the fall that hurts you, it's the sudden stop. If the safety rope or a cowpoke reaching out his hand that saves you, you just had a close one. Same with a dropped gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 IMHO (didn't take the time to reread the 3 different rule books). A falling gun (loaded or unloaded) ain't unsafe. It's when it comes in contact with something (or someone) that could cause the gun to cause damage. If you fall off a 100 foot roof, it ain't the fall that hurts you, it's the sudden stop. If the safety rope or a cowpoke reaching out his hand that saves you, you just had a close one. Same with a dropped gun. I believe you are on to something here. The penalty doesn't occur till the gun hits the ground. If the dropped firearm is caught, juggled, or trapped by shooter body and prop (or anything else) W/O breaking the 170 rule or sweeping anyone, then no call. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I believe you are on to something here. The penalty doesn't occur till the gun hits the ground. If the dropped firearm is caught, juggled, or trapped by shooter body and prop (or anything else) W/O breaking the 170 rule or sweeping anyone, then no call. Blastmaster Guess it all depends on what the definition of "dropped" is. The rules refer to a gun leaving the shooters hands, not one that is dropped then caught before it lands. Matthew Duncan, the hull in the 97 ain't unsafe neither, but is against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Guess it all depends on what the definition of "dropped" is. The rules refer to a gun leaving the shooters hands, not one that is dropped then caught before it lands. Matthew Duncan, the hull in the 97 ain't unsafe neither, but is against the rules. So far, after reviewing the ROI &II books, there is no mention about leaving the shooters hands meaning it has being dropped. There is reference about unsafe gun handling (RO Manual, page 24 item 20)...." Any unsafe gun handling in the course of a draw from a draw or any "fanning" will result in a stage disqualification....". And then there are rules about breking the 170 and sweeping people.... In the case being discussed, he was not drawing from a holster. Yep, it could be considered unsafe, but??? I can only go on memory and witch craft about the gun having to hit the ground before the dropped gun rule violation takes effect. I guess this should've been moved to a new thread. Will keep looking in Rule books about what constitutes a dropped gun. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twelve mile REB Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think you need to look at "safe to leave the shooters hand" loaded is a problem if you lose control (which could be subjective) unloaded with the 170 in mind not so much of a problem for cacthing or trapping if the weapon is safe to leave the shooters hand. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 PWB pointed me to this. Definition of a dropped gun.. RO1 "Glossary of Terms" page 30 Dropped round/firearm: "A round/firearm that has left the shooter's control and has come to rest at a location or position other that the location inteneded." Thanks PWB Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I believe you are on to something here. The penalty doesn't occur till the gun hits the ground. If the dropped firearm is caught, juggled, or trapped by shooter body and prop (or anything else) W/O breaking the 170 rule or sweeping anyone, then no call. Blastmaster HUHHHHH!!!!! Is dat a fact???? U gotta be kiddin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ...the shooter shouldn't be penalized for what MIGHT have happened...if the T/O is quick enough to save the shooter from a penalty (i.e. standing close enough & WATCHING THE GUN as s/he's supposed to)...and save the firearm from damage (or doing damage). ... ... The penalty doesn't occur till the gun hits the ground. If the dropped firearm is caught, juggled, or trapped by shooter's body and prop (or anything else) W/O breaking the 170 rule or sweeping anyone, then no call. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 YEP Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 HUHHHHH!!!!! Is dat a fact???? U gotta be kiddin. You must be in a time warp. You are referring to post #27, then you countered post #27 with your post #28, then I went on with Post #29 said I was still searching for def on dropped gun, then it proceeded to post #31 and now this post of #32 that goes all the way back to post #27 again. I stood corrected after the definition of what a dropped gun was pointed out to me in the Glossery. PWB, I am stumped with your post #33. The definition of Dropped ammo/firearm in the Glossery fixed me up. My post #27 is outdated and incorrect as I see it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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