Jacknife Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Blastmaster, brain warp would be a better definition of it, lol. Seems that interpretations of the rules change on occasion. I'm with ya on the your post about being stumped. It's all clear as mud now. Is it is, or is it ain't dropped, when it leaves the shooters control? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ...or is it ain't dropped, when it leaves the shooters control? Nope. Gun is considered "dropped" when it hits the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Nope. Gun is considered "dropped" when it hits the ground. Can ya quote me the "rule" that states that? In black and white? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Blastmaster, brain warp would be a better definition of it, lol. Seems that interpretations of the rules change on occasion. I'm with ya on the your post about being stumped. It's all clear as mud now. Is it is, or is it ain't dropped, when it leaves the shooters control? No problem Jacknife... Now that Matthew Duncan has wadded in, I willl stand by with my thoughts till PWB gets us off the stump with his post #33. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Nope. Gun is considered "dropped" when it hits the ground. Gun is dropped when it comes to rest in the wrong spot AND is not under the shooter's control. What if the shooter (a very short shooter) who is shooting a 32" barrel SXS, opens it to reload. The barrels hit the ground while the shooter is holding the gun. Any call here? What if the shooter (a very tall shooter) who is shooting a 32" barrel SXS, opens it to reload. The gun slips from the shooter's hand, the barrel hits the ground but the shooter catches the gun before it comes to rest. Any call here? Two conditions must be met.... out of shooter's control, and come to rest in the wrong spot. Do I read the Glossary correctly? Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Snakebite, by the same token, what if the shooter shoots his left side revolver and while attempting to get a grip on it with his left hand to holster it, drops it. The RO being on the ball and in the right place at the right time, catches it? Did it come to rest at a location or position other than the location intended? Surely the shooter didn't intend to place it in the RO's hand. Not just a "what if" situation, it could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Well now! All you quick TOs better be quick and watching/directly supervising a shooter who decocks when someone calls "red flag" or the shooter has a squib. I'd much rather see someone get a SDQ for missing their holster than decocking... Stepping away fronm the keyboard now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 In your example, the way I see it is that the Gun was caught before it came to rest. No call as long as the 170 was in place. No different than if the gun was falling off of the table and the T.O. caught it. I was the one who was timing a shooter who was in a hallway. He went to reholster his right handgun and missed the holster... at the same time, he was pulling his let handgun. He pinned the right handgun to the wall of the hallway, shot the left handgun and then reholsterd both of them. I did NOT call it a dropped gun. As far as I could see, the gun also had not broken the 170. I guess that we can nit-pick and split hairs on this thing until the cows come home, but the bottom line is that the T.O. can, and should if possible, help/save the shooter. As was stated in other response on this thread, I have done many thing to help shooters avoid getting a penalty, and I will continue to assist them in any LEGAL way when I am able to do so. I'm not always quick enough, or don't always see what is happening, but I do my best to be on top of things. Stopping a gun from falling is not the same as pulling a hull out of shotgun for the shooter. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Well now! All you quick TOs better be quick and watching/directly supervising a shooter who decocks when someone calls "red flag" or the shooter has a squib. I'd much rather see someone get a SDQ for missing their holster than decocking... Stepping away fronm the keyboard now! We do what we can... We should do no less. Good T.O. are a blessing and deserve our respect. Poor T.O. should do everything that they can to get better. I'll see you in a couple of days... I'll will do my best to keep you under close supervision. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 We do what we can... We should do no less. Good T.O. are a blessing and deserve our respect. Poor T.O. should do everything that they can to get better. I'll see you in a couple of days... I'll will do my best to keep you under close supervision. Snakebite My Sister-in-law, who lives in Lancaster and you met at Merlin, is coming for a day again on Friday. I think she had fun in Merlin. Go figure! It was a bit iffy after meeting "an inebriated you know who" the first night. She's led a sheltered life... AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Seen #16162 Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 The purpose of the range officer is to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire. As a TO. I have muscled open reluctant SxS, I have advanced cylinders, I have forced 97 bolts forward and carriers upward to allow the action to work. I have held up falling pistol belts with broken buckles and held up wobbly shooters by their suspender straps. The day comes that I am told that I cannot assist the shooter as I see needed is the day I hand off the timer and never touch it again. If you took the firearm from the shooter to correct the problem (i.e. muscled open reluctant SXS) I feel you have exceeded the responsibilities of the TO and should not be allowed. I feel "assiting the shooter" should be limited to coaching and pointing to what the shooter needs to do to correct the problem and doing whatever is necessary to prevent a unsafe situation but the TO should not handled the shooters firearm while on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 ... PWB, I am stumped with your post #33. The definition of Dropped ammo/firearm in the Glossery fixed me up. My post #27 is outdated and incorrect as I see it now. I was re-posting the part of #27 that is basically correct. (along with a previous comment of my own from a similar discussion in May of this year) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 In your example, the way I see it is that the Gun was caught before it came to rest. No call as long as the 170 was in place. No different than if the gun was falling off of the table and the T.O. caught it. I was the one who was timing a shooter who was in a hallway. He went to reholster his right handgun and missed the holster... at the same time, he was pulling his let handgun. He pinned the right handgun to the wall of the hallway, shot the left handgun and then reholsterd both of them. I did NOT call it a dropped gun. As far as I could see, the gun also had not broken the 170. I guess that we can nit-pick and split hairs on this thing until the cows come home, but the bottom line is that the T.O. can, and should if possible, help/save the shooter. As was stated in other response on this thread, I have done many thing to help shooters avoid getting a penalty, and I will continue to assist them in any LEGAL way when I am able to do so. I'm not always quick enough, or don't always see what is happening, but I do my best to be on top of things. Stopping a gun from falling is not the same as pulling a hull out of shotgun for the shooter. Snakebite I place catching a shooters revolver out of the air or whatever , pulling hulls out of restaged SG for the shooter or open the lever on a closed restaged rifle for the shooter all in the same boat. I don't think it is correct for a TO to do any of them. Ya have a big heart Snakebite. And no it ain't nit pickn. JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I was re-posting the part of #27 that is basically correct. (along with a previous comment of my own from a similar discussion in May of this year) Thanks PWB. Hey, Jacknife,,, I and MD was basically correct and I had changed my mine after reading the definition of a dropped firearm.. Has to hit the ground before penalty applies. Who would've thunk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I place catching a shooters revolver out of the air or whatever , pulling hulls out of restaged SG for the shooter or open the lever on a closed restaged rifle for the shooter all in the same boat. I don't think it is correct for a TO to do any of them. Ya have a big heart Snakebite. And no it ain't nit pickn. JMHO I agree with ya, course unless they are working the buddy system, then it is to be expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I place catching a shooters revolver out of the air or whatever , pulling hulls out of restaged SG for the shooter or open the lever on a closed restaged rifle for the shooter all in the same boat. I don't think it is correct for a TO to do any of them. ... This is also from the May discussion: "This is NOT the same as a T.O. pulling out a empty hull from a restaged shotgun or rifle.... in that case it can be pointed out to the shooter who can deal with it." IMO... No reasonable person would allow a gun to fall to the ground if they could prevent it. As far as giving someone a penalty..... I can't find ANYTHING in the rule books to support such action if the gun was saved by the T.O. or by the shooter. ... IT IS A NO CALL. Snakebite This is the position of the ROC on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 This is also from the May discussion: This is the position of the ROC on this issue. Thanks, Understand,, 10-4, will modify my data base to reflect what you just said. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 IMO, pulling a hull out of the gun or opening the lever is not OK... that act has already been completed (assuming that the next gun has been fired). However, if a gun is caught by the T.O. then the act has not been completed and we do not know for sure how it would have ended up. Maybe it would have hung up on the lever or something else and actually not have completed the fall. We do NOT know for sure and can only guess at what the outcome would have been. Its NOT finite. Catching it is the proper thing to do... we would never allow a gun to fall if we could prevent it.. and once we have interceded in the event we have stopped the process and can't say for sure what the end result would have been. NOBODY should allow a gun to fall if they can prevent it. Maybe the gun ends up in a precarious position and the T.O. decides to make sure that it doesn't actually fall... who knows.. maybe it would have.. or maybe it wouldn't have. Bottom line is that it DID NOT HAPPEN. Sure... the shooter gets a break because the T.O. was able to intervene. Give the shooter all the help that you can (within the rules)... helping him before the event actually completes is OK... helping him after the act has been completed (such as removing a hull or opening a lever) is not OK. Mary Jane was wearing a long period type dress with high button up shoes to match. She starts to move and hangs up her heel in the hem of her dress and starts to go down. Anyone would try to catch her.. and I hope, if she had a gun in hand, would try to catch/control the gun too. If you manage to pull it off... YAHOO.. she owns you a big TNX and you have prevented a unsafe situation. I learned this lesson while being the Range Master at EOT. A shooter restaged his rifle and quickly pulled one of his pistols and got off a round. The rifle started off the box and the shooter reached down and grabed it. The gun did not go all the way to the ground, but the muzzle did hit the ground. The T.O. awarded the shooter a SDQ. The shooter appealed the call to me.... the Range Master. I upheld the call. The shooter then posted the $50 fee and elevated the call. It was reviewed by a board of inquiry and the WB, and was overturned. The board said that the shooter regained control of the rifle before it came to it's final resting place. They made the correct call... the T.O. was wrong, and so WAS I! No different than if the T.O. had caught the gun. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 So what does the wording in the rule-------- "and has come to rest at a location or position other than the location intended" mean? When the shooter dropped the handgun, he "intended" on it landing in someones hand? or getting trapped against the wall???? Sure he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 IMO, pulling a hull out of the gun or opening the lever is not OK... that act has already been completed (assuming that the next gun has been fired). However, if a gun is caught by the T.O. then the act has not been completed and we do not know for sure how it would have ended up. Maybe it would have hung up on the lever or something else and actually not have completed the fall. We do NOT know for sure and can only guess at what the outcome would have been. Its NOT finite. Catching it is the proper thing to do... we would never allow a gun to fall if we could prevent it.. and once we have interceded in the event we have stopped the process and can't say for sure what the end result would have been. NOBODY should allow a gun to fall if they can prevent it. Maybe the gun ends up in a precarious position and the T.O. decides to make sure that it doesn't actually fall... who knows.. maybe it would have.. or maybe it wouldn't have. Bottom line is that it DID NOT HAPPEN. Sure... the shooter gets a break because the T.O. was able to intervene. Give the shooter all the help that you can (within the rules)... helping him before the event actually completes is OK... helping him after the act has been completed (such as removing a hull or opening a lever) is not OK. Mary Jane was wearing a long period type dress with high button up shoes to match. She starts to move and hangs up her heel in the hem of her dress and starts to go down. Anyone would try to catch her.. and I hope, if she had a gun in hand, would try to catch/control the gun too. If you manage to pull it off... YAHOO.. she owns you a big TNX and you have prevented a unsafe situation. I learned this lesson while being the Range Master at EOT. A shooter restaged his rifle and quickly pulled one of his pistols and got off a round. The rifle started off the box and the shooter reached down and grabed it. The gun did not go all the way to the ground, but the muzzle did hit the ground. The T.O. awarded the shooter a SDQ. The shooter appealed the call to me.... the Range Master. I upheld the call. The shooter then posted the $50 fee and elevated the call. It was reviewed by a board of inquiry and the WB, and was overturned. The board said that the shooter regained control of the rifle before it came to it's final resting place. They made the correct call... the T.O. was wrong, and so WAS I! No different than if the T.O. had caught the gun. Snakebite Who gets the penalty if the falling/unstable gun breaks the 170 and or sweeps people and it happens after the TO has touched the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 So what does the wording in the rule-------- "and has come to rest at a location or position other than the location intended" mean? When the shooter dropped the handgun, he "intended" on it landing in someones hand? or getting trapped against the wall???? Sure he did. The INTENDED resting point would be IN the holster; ON a table/in a rack/against a wall (muzzle oriented downrange), or any other acceptable SAFE location/position for restaging. OTHER THAN would mean someplace else (e.g. on the ground) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacknife Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 The INTENDED resting point would be IN the holster; ON a table/in a rack/against a wall (muzzle oriented downrange), or any other acceptable SAFE location/position for restaging. OTHER THAN would mean someplace else (e.g. on the ground) So, would not the "other than" be a penalty as described in the definition of the word "dropped"? What is the difference in it landing on the ground or in the TO's hand or trapped with the leg against a wall? Either way it is not the intended location for it to come to rest? As stated, the intended place is in the holster, table or wherever is described in the scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Who gets the penalty if the falling/unstable gun breaks the 170 and or sweeps people and it happens after the TO has touched the gun? Good question... lets see, if the shooter was restaging the gun, it would/should normally be empty. If it fell after being restaged and did not break the 170, it would be a 10 sec safety penalty. If it broke the 170 it would be a SDQ. If it were a dropped empty gun it would be a stage SDQ. So... I seems to me that if the T.O. tried to save the guy in the case of a dropped gun, but failed... it should be a SDQ. If the T.O. tried to save a restaged gun and failed, and the gun did not break the 170 ... then I would say that the shooter should get the 10 sec safety. If the T.O. tried to save a restaged gun and caused it to break the 170.... I would NOT charge the shooter with a SDQ because we just would not know for a fact that it would have broken the 170 without intervention, but I think that the shooter should get the 10 sec safety for the gun falling. (assuming that it was NOT a prop failure) Sound right? Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 So, would not the "other than" be a penalty as described in the definition of the word "dropped"? What is the difference in it landing on the ground or in the TO's hand or trapped with the leg against a wall? Either way it is not the intended location for it to come to rest? As stated, the intended place is in the holster, table or wherever is described in the scenario. The difference is where the firearm may have "come to rest" without intervention by the shooter or RO. i.e. if the fall/drop is arrested before the firearm reaches its final resting point (without breaking the 170º) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Good question... lets see, if the shooter was restaging the gun, it would/should normally be empty. If it fell after being restaged and did not break the 170, it would be a 10 sec safety penalty. If it broke the 170 it would be a SDQ. If it were a dropped empty gun it would be a stage SDQ. So... I seems to me that if the T.O. tried to save the guy in the case of a dropped gun, but failed... it should be a SDQ. If the T.O. tried to save a restaged gun and failed, and the gun did not break the 170 ... then I would say that the shooter should get the 10 sec safety. If the T.O. tried to save a restaged gun and caused it to break the 170.... I would NOT charge the shooter with a SDQ because we just would not know for a fact that it would have broken the 170 without intervention, but I think that the shooter should get the 10 sec safety for the gun falling. (assuming that it was NOT a prop failure) Sound right? Snakebite This is fun isn't it? I rather disagree with your last paragraph. If the gun broke the 170, then the correct penalty needs to be awarded,,, just who. You say not the shooter. If the gun did not hit the ground then no 10sec safety by your analysis. So the shooter gets nothing. Now throw a sweep of the crowd while gun is in hands of TO but gun didn't hit ground. No call again? Surely not. Blastmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 What ever. I'm certainly not a legal type and don't have absolutes for every possible "What if" that can surface. I've tried to do the best I can to explain it. Sorry that I've fallen short. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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