Sawbuck Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 So I desided I want to shoot real black powder in frontier cartridge class instead of a sub. Went to my local dealer to buy some. Come to find out in the great state of Iowa I can't buy the real stuff only subs. What a bunch of S$%&. All of my research has been on BP. Now what? So to make it easier I thought I would ask all you Frontier Cartridge shooters that us subs what you like best. I shoot 38 Rugers, SXS Stevens, and a 45LC 1860 Henry. I have been using Magtec 158 grn 38's and 250 45's. What is your set up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 So I desided I want to shoot real black powder in frontier cartridge class instead of a sub. Went to my local dealer to buy some. Come to find out in the great state of Iowa I can't buy the real stuff only subs. You are making it sound like you can't have BP in Iowa. Believe that it's just that the storage requirements for a gun shop in Iowa are a pain and the Local guy doesn't want to (maybe, can't afford to) jump through the hoops. I'll suggest the real answer - order the real stuff online. Powder Inc, Maine Powder House, Grafs, several others. Very easy to do, just have to get an order together for 25 pounds if you want it as cheap as possible. I go through that much in 6 months. Order FFg and it will work for all you mentioned. If you really have to shoot subs, use APP (first choice) or 777 (second, for more recoil and noise). Don't use Pyrodex or pellets - too many problems with those approaches. Good luck, GJ PS: For REAL info about shooting with BP in Iowa, perhaps you should contact these folks: http://www.iowablackpowderfederation.net/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Of all the subs I like 777 the best. No compression, remember, bullet just kissing the powder works best for me. You can use regular smokeless bullets, doesn't gum the guns up (like Pyrodex did) and cleans real easy, even easier than BP or smokeless. Use FF and not triple F for your loads. Triple F especially in 45LC is a handful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 BP is difficult to find due to the federal storage regs imposed on dealers. Best thing is to get together with a few fellow BP shooters and order 25lbs on line from someone like Maine Powder House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Howdy I have to agree, I really doubt there is nobody anywhere in Iowa selling real Black Powder. And it is not necessarily the terrorism thing or Federal regulations. Long before 2001 there were lots and lots of local communities that would not allow real Black Powder to be sold in city limits. More to do with the fact that Black Powder is a true explosive and different storage regulations are imposed on it than on Smokeless powder. The subs all get classified as modern propellants, so anyplace that can sell Smokeless can sell the subs. The guy I used to buy Black Powder from screwed up in his book keeping and did not renew his permit to store real BP. Just a book keeping error. Ask around in your club where everybody is buying real Black Powder. Be prepared to drive some distance, I have to drive over an hour to buy it over the counter. Instead, a pard and I buy 25 pounds a year from Maine Powder House. Simple. See if there is anybody at your club who wants to go in for a group buy. If still no go, I recommend APP. You can use it with regular bullets and it cleans up with water. 777 is about 15% more powerful than real Black Powder, so be prepared for a lot of boom and recoil if you go that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 To answer your question about BP subs, I use APP (or Goex Pinnacle). In my .38's, I use fffG, and in 12 gauge I use ffG. According to a factory rep that I talked to at EOT several years ago, it is okay to leave some airspace. Since it makes more smoke per the same load than the Holy Black (according to Captain George Baylor, who would know), then loading down makes sense and cents. Cleanup is with Windex with VINEGAR (no ammonia, please), and goes much faster than cleaning our guns when we've (in shame) used smokeless. The downside, of course, is cleaning guns after every use. For years I have used BP lubes such as Bore Butter after gun cleaning, but about a year ago I switched to Rem Oil, and find the guns run much better and more reliably. Use whatever works for you, compadre! Salud! eGG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantry Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 I use 2F Triple 777 in my 38's using the starting load recommended for a 158grn bullet in my rifle and Richard Mason's and find it a fairly pleasant and controllable load. I also use 2F Triple 777 in my Remington 1858's. Clean up is quick and easy, I just finished cleaning my 66 after shooting 120 rounds and the barrel was clean after 3 patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 I have used both APP and Triple Seven with good results. I will PM some specific recommendations. Read some of the old posts regarding loading loading experiences with subs. Pay attention to the dust properties of APP and reports of rust in powder measures that were not cleaned after use. Also read about the hydroscopic properties of subs. Triple Seven really is more powerful and gives more recoil. There is no ideal sub. They are just powders with different properties, costs and availabilities. Understand these properties and you can get satisfactory results. At the Outlaw Trail my wife and I shot APP, Triple Seven and real black powder in various loads with good results for all. Read Baylor's BP Substitutes for Dummies for more info. Welcome to the Darkside. I do hope you get your hands on some real BP sometime. Shooting it is a great experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Rose, SASS #45478 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I use 777 2fg in 38's and 45's. I use Pyrodex RS in shotgun because it is lots cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Chris Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 To answer your question about BP subs, I use APP (or Goex Pinnacle). In my .38's, I use fffG, and in 12 gauge I use ffG. According to a factory rep that I talked to at EOT several years ago, it is okay to leave some airspace. Since it makes more smoke per the same load than the Holy Black (according to Captain George Baylor, who would know), then loading down makes sense and cents. Cleanup is with Windex with VINEGAR (no ammonia, please), and goes much faster than cleaning our guns when we've (in shame) used smokeless. The downside, of course, is cleaning guns after every use. For years I have used BP lubes such as Bore Butter after gun cleaning, but about a year ago I switched to Rem Oil, and find the guns run much better and more reliably. Use whatever works for you, compadre! Salud! eGG I agree with everything this feller said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 I have tried several different subs. APP is a "milder bang" and 777 gives a "stout bang". For me, if I were going to use subs, I would use APP for cowboy matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Morgan Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Some of us prefer to us the real stuff. When I have the energy to load and shoot it I shoot FFF, but I am lucky if I can even shoot smokeless these days. There are quite a few sites that will ship so that may be how you have to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Whereabouts in Iowa are you? You can get the stuff mailed from any of the national suppliers. One of 'em, Crater Black Powder, is in Mineral Illinois. I get by there a few times a year and pick up 25 or 30 lb at a time. If you shoot me a PM I'll get you the particulars. Depending on how much you buy, the hazmat fee can make a difference. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Instead, a pard and I buy 25 pounds a year from Maine Powder House. Simple. See if there is anybody at your club who wants to go in for a group buy. Howdy Sawbuck, what DJ and Cowboy Rick said, buy in bulk and save. In a good year I'll shoot three matches a month = 24.5 lbs. In an off year I might shoot two a month and a couple of multi days = 21.5 lbs. So yer gonna burn about 25 lbs. a year if you shoot much, if not go in with another shooter and split 25 lbs. Maine Powder House (and others) offer free shipping and no hazmat fee for 25-50 lbs. Maine PH carriers Schuetzen, Swiss, and Goex. I prefer the Schuetzen, it burns cleaner for the same cost as Goex. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pay Dirt Norvelle #90056 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 The group I belong to orders 50lbs at a time and we go through it quite quickly, however it is a Civil War reenctment unit so we do use a lot and it is a good idea to get a group together to make a order and it comes out to a nice decent price per pound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawbuck Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 Thanks guys for all the great advise and info. You have been most helpful. I will be getting some real black powder in the future. But for starters I think I'll try to use a sub. Being it is so easy to get. I now have some loading specs to start with. Does anyone else want to share there loading preference? The more options the better. 38 revolvers, 45LC rifle. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Thanks guys for all the great advise and info. You have been most helpful. I will be getting some real black powder in the future. But for starters I think I'll try to use a sub. Being it is so easy to get. I now have some loading specs to start with. Does anyone else want to share there loading preference? The more options the better. 38 revolvers, 45LC rifle. Thanks again. Fill the case to 1/16" to 1/8" compression, seat the bullet, crimp well, shoot, repeat. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Ummm, some previously provided data (see above) is incorrect and can cause real problems. Use NO compression on 777 powder. Just fill case to where bottom of bullet will seat. 777 is badly behaved when compressed. And don't use FFFg granulation of 777 in cartridges - use FFg. Even APP is not recommended to have compression placed on the powder. Just fill to base of bullet, no more. Good luck, GJ Better yet, maybe you should look over Capt Baylor's fine treatise on the subject: http://www.curtrich....ubsdummies.html It is still a fine article. GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahomabound Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 ...tried several subs over time, found 777 to be my most prefered... ...load it like stated above, no compression, bullet just seated on powder... ...use the same bullets/lube as for the heathen smokeless powders... ...for the shotshells, I just square the load; same amount of powder as shot with the light red wad for 12 gauge... ...gun cleaning is easy, I use same process as with Black Powder, just no rush... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Did you know that a pound of 777 buried in the ground with a fuze and primer will make the same sized hole as real black powder but since it is a "sub" it is not as controlled. It isn't "real" black powder, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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