Krazy Kajun Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I load 38s on a Dillon 650 with Dillon dies and have found that I am getting lead shavings on loaded rounds located where the brass meets the bullet. It takes a little while to go through that many rounds wiping them down and removing any excess lead shavings so as not to have these shavings prevent the bullet from being chambered. I have a go-no go gauge that I run every round through before putting them into the storage case. I'm not sure the cause of this and was wondering if anyone else is having this problem or has dealt with it. I am thinking that maybe the cases aren't being belled enough in the charging bushing and when the bullet seating die pushes the bullet in the case the sides of the casing shave off a little of the lead where the opening in the casing was not as large as the bullet diameter. The strange thing about it is that I don't get lead shavings on all of the rounds...maybe on just two thirds of the rounds. Each casing is going through the same charging die and is being belled to the same diameter. Why am I getting lead shavings at all and why not the same on every round. Any insight here would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Fill 'Em 67797 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 You may not get lead shavings everytime because the bullets are not all exactly the same. So, some are slightly smaller, they don't shave lead. Some are slightly bigger, they do shave lead. I would adjust the flaring die to bell the mouth just a wee bit more, that should solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Slow typing. The answer has been given. A little bit more belling of the case will solve your issues with shaving while seating lead bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cedar County Sheriff, SASS#4578Life Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Another reason not all the cases shave lead, is that they may not all be the same length. Cases stretch at different rates during their life-cycle of firing, resizing, flaring (belling) and crimping. As others have said set your flaring punch a little deeper and it should solve the lead-shaving problem, but watch your cases, if you see some that seem to have more flare than others, you may want to trim the cases so that all are the same length AFTER resizing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Flare JUST enough so they don't shave. Don't sweat cases stretching. I don't think they CAN stretch at the levels we shoot, and if they do, it'd be about the time the brass is gonna be splitting anyway. The "seesaw" is enough flare to keep em from shaving lead, and not so much you prematurely split em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August West, SASS #45079 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Why am I getting lead shavings at all and why not the same on every round. Any insight here would be appreciated. The lead can be shaved at the beginning of the seating process, as the other folks here have suggested. However, it can also be shaved at the very end of the seating if the crimper is set too strong. In other words, the crimp begins to be formed before the bullet is seated to the crimp groove and a bit of the shank is cut during the seating process. You can confirm which of these is the problem by pulling one of the bullets and seeing where it has been shaved. However, I'm betting on crimping because it happens to some of your rounds but not all. This is the result of different case lengths and the crimp starting at different times during the seating process. Set the crimp to a bit later and you should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 FWIW you don't gain a whole lot with the loads we shoot, especially when using brass many, many times, by crimping the (juice) out of em. Set enough crimp to roll the case mouth into the crimp groove enough so ya can't catch the edge with a fingernail (this is enough to prevent setback in a magazine tube) and yer there. NECK TENSION is achieved with properly sizing cases and using properly sized bullets. The crimp is a "safety device". Trying to improve burn characteristics at the low en with a tight crimp is a mis-application of practices used with slow powders at the top end of the pressure spectrum. It don't make a hill of beans of difference at the bottom end. But if you must crimp em really hard, go for it. Brass is ruined sooner, and that's good for brass sellers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seamus McGillicuddy Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 You can also consider running your bullets through a sizer first so that they are all just the size you want. Seamus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickahominy Charlie Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I think the correct answer is "add more flair (flare? )" as noted above. I'll add one more thing. Some will tell me I'm crazy (and that might be true), but I sort my brass by headstamp. Why? Yes, I'm anal retentive, but there's another reason. I think (but cannot back it by any absolute scientific proof) that some brands of cases are thicker than others. I, therefore, think that some cases will bell more than others (because of this thickness difference) with the die seated in the same position. This phenomena (to use the big word ) can cause a difference in the bell of the case and therefore in the shaving. Let's face it. Some shave and some don't. Well, the bullet can be a variable and I think the amount of case bell can as well. FWIW, I have RP, Win, Fed, and some other cases I regularly use. I find RP to be the thinnest and Fed to be the thickest. I do turn my die (case flair and powder charge die) down another 1/8 to 1/4 turn when going from RP to Fed. For me, the issue is not shaving lead, but being able to seat the bullet easier (my press requires that I hand place the bullet on top and if it's too tight, it doesn't want to sit up there very well). Ok all you smart reloaders, go ahead and tell me how wrong I am. Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I think (but cannot back it by any absolute scientific proof) that some brands of cases are thicker than others. I find RP to be the thinnest and Fed to be the thickest. In .38 special, I also find that the RP is thin and Fed, CBC, Starline and military contract Winchester are thick. You can easily measure this with a good caliper. You can also find this (qualitatively) by comparing the amount of impact needed to pull crimped bullets in each of these cases. RP pulls very easily. Starline and CBC need a LOT more impact to pull exactly the same slug. But, the case wall thickness should have VERY little to do with the amount of flare that the expander die puts on a case mouth. The expander bell works on the inside of the case. A really thick case might have a larger OD at the case mouth, but should have the same ID, as a thinner case. What makes a BIG difference in the amount of flare you get on a case is the overall length. If all your cases are the same length, except one that is 0.001 inch longer than the rest, and you have an expander button that has a 45 degree angle to it's section that flares the mouth, then high school geometry will tell you that the longer case will have a flare that is 0.002 inch larger (inside diameter) (remember, the case mouth flares out all the way around the circumference, so you double the difference in length to get the amount extra flare diameter that the length causes). Nobody keeps their cases trimmed or sorted to be within 0.001 inch of a standard length. So, we all live with a little variation in the finished, expanded case mouth. The occasional short case then gets a small amount of flare, and catches the bullet side, shaving some lead. So, to confirm what Doc Fillem, Cliff Hanger and AJ have already written, just adjust the amount of flare to get good seating of the bullet ALMOST 100% of the time, but no more extra flare than that. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 You may not get lead shavings everytime because the bullets are not all exactly the same. So, some are slightly smaller, they don't shave lead. Some are slightly bigger, they do shave lead. I would adjust the flaring die to bell the mouth just a wee bit more, that should solve the problem. bout' the only other thing I'd consider.. is maybe.. just maybe.. a feller might get a little lazy in bringing down the lever and not getting the same bell on every case.. I load on a Dillon 550 not a 650.. but if they work close to the same.. might be that Rance just somethin' else to think about.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickahominy Charlie Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 What makes a BIG difference in the amount of flare you get on a case is the overall length. If all your cases are the same length, except one that is 0.001 inch longer than the rest, and you have an expander button that has a 45 degree angle to it's section that flares the mouth, then high school geometry will tell you that the longer case will have a flare that is 0.002 inch larger (inside diameter) (remember, the case mouth flares out all the way around the circumference, so you double the difference in length to get the amount extra flare diameter that the length causes). Good luck, GJ I'll buy that, Joe. Dang it, now yur gonna have me out there with the calipers a'measurin' stuff. I suspect that when I do, though, that the Fed cases are gonna be a teeny bit shorter than the RP's.....but that's just my hypothesis (there I go with them fancy words again... ) based upon my reloading experiences. Thanks! Chick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 For CAS shooting I don't worry about case length. I just bell the mouth enough that the bullet can be started without shaving lead. Put a good crimp on and GO! If the cases are not all the exact same length some will bell a tad more than others but it doesn't matter. I never trim CAS cases to length. Your mileage may vary. Drifter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted August 18, 2011 Author Share Posted August 18, 2011 Thanks for all the responses from everyone. I'm not going to trim the cases...too many of them. I think I'm going to see about adjusting the bell a little more and seeing if that will help. I'm going to check the crimp die too, it may have too much on it. I want to have more time shooting and less time cleaning off extra lead on the bullets. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Thanks for all the responses from everyone. I'm not going to trim the cases...too many of them. I think I'm going to see about adjusting the bell a little more and seeing if that will help. I'm going to check the crimp die too, it may have too much on it. I want to have more time shooting and less time cleaning off extra lead on the bullets. Thanks again. I tell folks to back off the bell until the seating die JUST shaves lead then tighten it up maybe 1/12 to 1/8 of a turn. Ya don't want a trumpet, but ya don't want it shaving lead. Then ya might wanna make sure yer crimp isn't set on "smash", but just nicely folding the case mouth into the groove (looks like a factory load). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Why am I getting lead shavings at all and why not the same on every round. Kajun, to FACTUALLY answer your question, the following would need to be known: 1. Take a handful of your bullets and measure the base diameters to determine how much that are out of round 2. Measure the diameter that your charger/belling die is opening out the mouth of the brass. If the bell is smaller than the maximum diameter of any bullets (all cast bullets do not a perfect base with the same diameter Rule of Thumb for Any Bell: The case mouth has to be opened so 1/2 of bullet base sits inside the belled case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 In .38 special, I also find that the RP is thin and Fed, CBC, Starline and military contract Winchester are thick. You can easily measure this with a good caliper. You can also find this (qualitatively) by comparing the amount of impact needed to pull crimped bullets in each of these cases. RP pulls very easily. Starline and CBC need a LOT more impact to pull exactly the same slug. But, the case wall thickness should have VERY little to do with the amount of flare that the expander die puts on a case mouth. The expander bell works on the inside of the case. A really thick case might have a larger OD at the case mouth, but should have the same ID, as a thinner case. What makes a BIG difference in the amount of flare you get on a case is the overall length. If all your cases are the same length, except one that is 0.001 inch longer than the rest, and you have an expander button that has a 45 degree angle to it's section that flares the mouth, then high school geometry will tell you that the longer case will have a flare that is 0.002 inch larger (inside diameter) (remember, the case mouth flares out all the way around the circumference, so you double the difference in length to get the amount extra flare diameter that the length causes). Nobody keeps their cases trimmed or sorted to be within 0.001 inch of a standard length. So, we all live with a little variation in the finished, expanded case mouth. The occasional short case then gets a small amount of flare, and catches the bullet side, shaving some lead. So, to confirm what Doc Fillem, Cliff Hanger and AJ have already written, just adjust the amount of flare to get good seating of the bullet ALMOST 100% of the time, but no more extra flare than that. Good luck, GJ GJ The sizing die reforms the case's OD; so thicker brass will have a larger bell OD. However it is the ID of the belled mouth that matters. Assuming that the handle is moved to the bottom of stroke every time the only way the ID of the belled case can vary is because of variations in case length. JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 The lead can be shaved at the beginning of the seating process, as the other folks here have suggested. However, it can also be shaved at the very end of the seating if the crimper is set too strong. In other words, the crimp begins to be formed before the bullet is seated to the crimp groove and a bit of the shank is cut during the seating process. You can confirm which of these is the problem by pulling one of the bullets and seeing where it has been shaved. However, I'm betting on crimping because it happens to some of your rounds but not all. This is the result of different case lengths and the crimp starting at different times during the seating process. Set the crimp to a bit later and you should be fine. AW With Dillon dies the crimping die does not seat the bullet so the lead shaving can only happen in the seating die in station 4 on the 650. If the Dillon crimp die is set for excessive roll crimp the cases will bulge. JD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 GJ The sizing die reforms the case's OD; so thicker brass will have a larger bell OD. However it is the ID of the belled mouth that matters. Assuming that the handle is moved to the bottom of stroke every time the only way the ID of the belled case can vary is because of variations in case length. Oh, well, sorry, but there seems to be a violent agreement here, perhaps because of using the wrong names on the dies. Time to head back to a loading manual. The SIZING die has nothing to do with expanding the neck of the cartridge. The only role that the sizing die plays is to get the case OD down to at or below the right size for the expander die to work correctly. The EXPANDER (belling) DIE then expands the front third or so of the case, and right at the case mouth it can put a bell (even larger expansion) on the case mouth. This expansion occurs over a button or plug, so the expansion comes from the inside of the case. The thickness of the brass case thus has almost no affect on the expanded ID of the case, or the amount of belling applied. But, because the belling section of the expander plug is "angled", the LENGTH of the case can make a fairly large variation in how much bell there is. And, the tight fit of the expanded section of the case "neck" over the bullet is what really provided a snug fit, good bullet retention, and assists with a clean burn of powder. The SEATING die then slides the bullet down into case to the desired location, and if adjusted so that it is also a CRIMPER, it rolls the crimp (on .38 special and most other revlver cartridges) into the crimp groove or even into the soft lead of a bullet land. So, to state the obvious ONE MORE time: Just adjust the amount of flare (belling) to allow good seating of the bullet all of the time, but no more extra flare than that, because you will get more neck splits. If you have a loose bullet fit in the case (or, crumple the case as the bullet seats), then you need to match the expander button to the diameter of the slug you want to use. If you shave lead, it's usually due to not belling enough. Sometimes the standard expander plug may not quite adjust to provide all the belling you want - factory does make a mistake sometimes. They will almost always be willing to help you get a good expander button to work in their die. Shaving can also occur if you are being sloppy while setting the bullet in place and letting the bullet enter the seating die crooked, with a part of the base hanging over the brass of the case mouth. As I said, I think we are in violent agreement, JD. (Looking out the window - "dang, has it started snowing already?" ) Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Another thought to to the whole neck expanding issue is to not expand the case neck. I don't expand case necks, I only bell them to let the bullet start without shaving lead. The bullet will expand the case as it is seated and that way, diameter of the bullet or the inside of the case is less important. You can either turn down the diameter of your expander or, if using Dillon products, get a different powder bushing that is just tapered and not an expander. BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Rick, SASS#84292 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I also load with Dillon 650. The problem I used to have when I wasn't putting in enough bell, was the bullet would not set on top of the case straight and if I was cranking out a bunch of loads kind of fast the bullet would "cock" a little bit and shave some lead as in went up into the seating die. I added flare and that solved my problem. But I have also slowed my loading rate down alot also. As you know the 600 will easily load 500-600 rounds an hour. Easy to let some less than straight bullets slip in there. Thats what happened to me just my 2 cents worth. Whiskey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 As you know the 600 will easily load 500-600 rounds an hour. Rick, yep - the theoretical loading rate verses the practical rate. Never met a reloader that can do 500-600 an hour, including yours truly! For 600 rounds, that's 6 rounds a second or one every 0.1666666666666667 of a second ... NAW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Rick, yep - the theoretical loading rate verses the practical rate. Never met a reloader that can do 500-600 an hour, including yours truly! For 600 rounds, that's 6 rounds a second or one every 0.1666666666666667 of a second ... NAW! Another product of our fine education system. 600/hr is 10 a minute, or one every 6 seconds. If you use a bullet tray, start with 6 primer tubes full, a box of bullets and enough brass nearby, it's not hard to achieve. Boring, but not hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Never met a reloader that can do 500-600 an hour, including yours truly! For 600 rounds, that's 6 rounds a second or one every 0.1666666666666667 of a second ... NAW! No, 600 rounds an hour is one round every 6 seconds. (There are 3600 seconds in an hour, last time I checked). It's not all that hard, with primer tubes loaded up beforehand, to run 600 in an hour on a 650 with a case feeder. I can run about 400 an hour without the feeder. Good luck, GJ ( Oops, what you said, AJ! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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