Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Round count 10 pistols, 10Rifle and 4+ shotgun.(There are 3 rifle targets, 3 pistol targets, and 6 plates on rack) With rifle shooter sweeps 3 targets 3 times, with 10 rnd. shoots a plate off rack. With pistol repeat rifle sequence. Then with shotgun "clean the remaining plates from the plate rack". The controversy came up when a shooter missed a plate with either rifle or pistol and when he shot his 4, As required minimun shotgun rds., 2 plates went down with one of the rnds., not requiring any more shells, yet 1 of the 3 spotters, yelled he needed to shoot 1 more shotgun shell to make up for the missed plate by the rifle or pistol, which he did after a long hesitation. Yet, as written, with the shotgun "clean the remaining plates from the plate rack", which he did with 4, instead of 5. Scenario as written, did not call for shooting any extras, just clean remaining plates off rack. Sorry, but I never thought I would get into one of these. Your call? MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Creek Vic 80846 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 He shot it as it was written. He did not have to shoot one more shotgun round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Round count 10 pistols, 10Rifle and 4+ shotgun. Your call? MT Reshoot. The shooter had fulfilled the conditions of the stage (engage the plates - knockdown the knockdowns) and had done so with the required number of rounds (10 - 10 - 4+) as per stage instructions. Calling out for the shooter to do anymore than that (unless specifically written into the stage direction) is interference and grounds for a reshoot (or at least a review of the timer and taking off the last shot if the timer caught all of them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It seems like common sense would say that if you are out of targets you stop shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 ...4+ shotgun...with the shotgun "clean the remaining plates from the plate rack", which he did ... I believe your description answers your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 I agree with all the answers, all it took was one spotter, (also a very good shooter)in convincing another spotter, and also the TO. Shooter took it good, but was very well upset and not understanding the call to shoot another rnd. As to stage writing, it was well written, just someone took it upon themselves to interpret something not there. Thanks, MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 One shot, two plates. Magic BB. Bad call by spotter and other officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 He did not need to shoot anymore....reshoot!!!! Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 As others have stated, he met the 10 10 4+ requirement of the stage, all plates were down, no need to shoot any more rounds. Re-shoot, or back the last round off the timer if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Reshoot, taking time off the original is not an option. Sometimes the bear eats you , sometimes you eat the bear cheyenne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 He shot it as it was written. He did not have to shoot one more shotgun round. Yup. If ya wanted him to shoot 1 SG shell per plate, instructions needed to say so. As it stands, no call. and a reshoot if he asked for it becajuse of that big long delay and forcing an extra round to be fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Just curious....what did the OTHER 2 spotters say? 2 out of 3 is in the shooters favor if they disagreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macinaw Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 MT, We had the same situation on our posse. It doesn't help that the plate rack is not working the way it should. One shot with the shotgun may make some other plates fall on their own that shouldn't fall. If the shooter missed with pistol or rifle and had one standing to be shot with shotgun; I think they should have shoot the "extra" shot because they missed with the pistol or rifle. It is only fair to the other shooters who didn't miss with their pistol or rifle! Others may not agree; but this is the SASS WIRE. BFD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Just curious....what did the OTHER 2 spotters say? 2 out of 3 is in the shooters favor if they disagreed. From earlier write up they kept their mouth shut. RO/TO should have offered the reshoot, the shooter shouldn't have to ask for it. Some folks seem to be against giving a reshoot. Things happen, reshoots are many times the right thing to do. Heck even in major matches, whole posses have to do reshoots because of bad decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 MT, We had the same situation on our posse. It doesn't help that the plate rack is not working the way it should. One shot with the shotgun may make some other plates fall on their own that shouldn't fall. If the shooter missed with pistol or rifle and had one standing to be shot with shotgun; I think they should have shoot the "extra" shot because they missed with the pistol or rifle. It is only fair to the other shooters who didn't miss with their pistol or rifle! Others may not agree; but this is the SASS WIRE. BFD Then why bother with stage instructions. Let's all just shoot it like we FEEL is fair to everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RHL Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I'm putting these stages into old west scenarios. If I was a baddy and I was missed with the first shot. I'd say "whew"! Now when the shooter came around with the shotgun and knocked me out that wouldn't be such a good thing for me. Lucky or not, he made up for the first miss and cleared the baddies. I have to agree with Subdeacon Joe 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macinaw Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The stage instructions stated for the shooter to make up any pistol or rifle misses with the shotgun. If the Rack was working the way it should; this whole problem wouldn't have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The stage instructions stated for the shooter to make up any pistol or rifle misses with the shotgun. If the Rack was working the way it should; this whole problem wouldn't have happened. That is just the nature of the beast with plate racks and match directors that use them need to understand it. It can work the other way just as well, sometimes the hottest loads will not take a plate down for whatever reason, I am sure that is why lots of shoots allow a free make up in some fashion. At the just completed WR, my wife was shooting 32 pistols and she was the only one on our posse that had two plates fall with one shot. Must have been pretty hot 32s or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manatee Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Did the cowboy shoot 4 shotgun rounds as required? Yup. Reshoot. And tell the jailhouse lawyer who's a good shooter ta stick with shootin rather than readin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Something doesn't sound right about shooting two targets with one round. Which target was engaged by the round? When did the shooter engage the second target? I think a reshoot is in order becasue of a prop failure. Chancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 MT, We had the same situation on our posse. It doesn't help that the plate rack is not working the way it should. One shot with the shotgun may make some other plates fall on their own that shouldn't fall. If the shooter missed with pistol or rifle and had one standing to be shot with shotgun; I think they should have shoot the "extra" shot because they missed with the pistol or rifle. It is only fair to the other shooters who didn't miss with their pistol or rifle! Others may not agree; but this is the SASS WIRE. BFD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Here's the scenarios for that stage. No matter what happens to the plate, even if all had fallen with a pistol or rifle shot, shooter must still shoot required shotgun shells, which were 4. But that is not the problem. Problem was there 5 plates remaining. Shooter had missed one plate with rifle/pistol. That meant he would have 5 plates to shoot with the shotgun, shooter was shooting a double, hit 2 plates, re-loaded with next shot he knocked down 2 plates, with last shot he shot the final standing plate. 4 shots, 5 remaining plates fell. As I stated, only one spotter yelled out he needed to shoot 1 more, even though no plates were remaining up, he convinced another spotter, even though I objected, the TO told him to shoot another. A good 10 seconds went by. He did not get a re-shoot. The scenario only says, "With shotgun clean the remaing plates from plate rack", of course its understood that the required shells be fired on the Round count. Here's the scenario: MT http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z72/marshaltroop/cs.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macinaw Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Stage was written 4 plus shotgun. The plus being shots to make up for pistol or rifle misses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 That wasn't the same stage. I'll print out the scenario. The writer did a good job of writing it, it's just that it was interpreted wrong. Which sometimes is the problem, not reading it, rather interpreting what one thinks it should be. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Stage was written 4 plus shotgun. The plus being shots to make up for pistol or rifle misses. "with shotgun clean the remaining plates from the plate rack", why would you shoot more if they're all down????????????And the required shotgun shells "4" the "+" is if there are any remaing, "only". The shooter shooter shot the 4 shotgun shells, all plates are now down, why would he call on a + for more. Its the luck of the game, or good shooter that he was able to knock 2 down with 1 shot. Sometimes your lucky, sometimes you call on the +++++++ to get em down. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 The stage instructions stated for the shooter to make up any pistol or rifle misses with the shotgun. But also: clean remaining plates, nothing beyond. http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z72/marshaltroop/cs.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macinaw Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 MT At the bottom of the stage description it says Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 The falling of plates is a fairly common problem with falling plate racks. And one of the major objections some have about using them. Sometimes, one hit may bring down the entire set of plates. Careful stage writing is needed to clearly express the writer's intent. In this case, the minimum number of rounds fired was spelled out and the option of making up misses was also stated. The shooter met the requirements of the stage as written. If more plates had fallen, the shooter would have been required to still shoot 4 from the shotgun. Since the instructions did not say how to handle the situation beyond that, I believe the shooter has to get the benefit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I would not have "interfered" with the shooter and I would have granted a re-shoot. It does appear the best way to avoid this situation was to cover it in the shooters' meeting. Explain exactly what is meant so no range lawyers try to interpret something other than written. Explain what is to happen if a shooter hits a knockdown and it doesn't go done. Explain what is to happen if a shooter misses a knockdown and explain what is to happen if a shooter knocks down more than one knockdown with one shot. We do this because we've had the same problems with one plate rack. It sure cuts down on the number of questions, discussions, disagreements and reshoots. Steeldust Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 MT At the bottom of the stage description it says Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun. Yup - shooter missed a knockdown plate. Shooter used his shotgun to "Clean up" the remaining plates. Shooter fired the minimum required number of shotgun shells to do so. Stage is complete and completed to the satisfaction of the written instruction. Read the written instructions - follow the written instructions. Do not attempt to add restrictions or create requirements that the stage writer did not put in writing. Why is this so hard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 MT At the bottom of the stage description it says Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun. Read the sentence before that, " clean remaining plates from the plate rack". Why would or should a shooter have to shoot more then 4 shotgun shells if he knocks the missed rifle/pistol plate "Also" with his 4 rnds. It does not say to shooter has to shoot more then required to knock down plates, if he was able to knock 5 down with 4 shots, Hooray for him. He accomplished the scenario to knock all plates down. And he did, "rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun" but no were does it say to shoot beyond the accomplishment of knockin all the plates "down". Sorry, I'm done on this. Good stage writing, poor interpretation of what was written. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Yup - shooter missed a knockdown plate. Shooter used his shotgun to "Clean up" the remaining plates. Shooter fired the minimum required number of shotgun shells to do so. Stage is complete and completed to the satisfaction of the written instruction. Read the written instructions - follow the written instructions. Do not attempt to add restrictions or create requirements that the stage writer did not put in writing. Why is this so hard? +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 See, this is why stage writers need to READ their stages and see where them holes are BEFORE the shoot. A simple note at the bottom of the stage description on how to handle multiple plate rack plates falling. (I don't care how good/expensive your plate rack is, you shoot that sucker with a scattergun more than one is gonna fall sometimes!) A. Shooter did ok. Followed stage description. B. Shooter DID NOT have RO interference due to "improper coaching". Take yer score and quit bellyaching. C. Shooter was interfered with but it's ok because the RO was smart, was watching the timer display and can go back to the CORRECT time. D. Shooter was interfered with, doesn't want a reshoot. That's ok. Only time a shooter HAS to take a reshoot wouldn't be one of these times. E. Shooter was coached properly, fired the correct number of rounds (4 plus 1 for the miss) was coached correctly and should take yer score and quit bellyaching. F. 'Round these parts happenings like this are called "Gimmie's" Or, "Sometimes you be the winshield....Sometimes you be the bug." Then why bother with stage instructions. Let's all just shoot it like we FEEL is fair to everyone else. Good one Nate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggady Zag, SASS #67251 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 10/10/4+ If a stage description says to knock down the 4 shotgun targets.. And after your first shotgun knockdown, one falls down at the other end... You have to shoot the 4th shotgun round where it was... it's not a gimme.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 10/10/4+ If a stage description says to knock down the 4 shotgun targets.. And after your first shotgun knockdown, one falls down at the other end... You have to shoot the 4th shotgun round where it was... it's not a gimme.. What is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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