You make the call

[Dubious Don #56333]

For some people, ya gots to use the colored chalk.....

 

10/10/4+

If a stage description says to knock down the 4 shotgun targets..

And after your first shotgun knockdown, one falls down at the other end...

You have to shoot the 4th shotgun round where it was... it's not a gimme..

[Ziggady Zag, SASS #67251]

Point is... what happened to the rifle/pistol miss?

The extra plate that went down could be due to a target malfunction... when that happens you shoot where it was.

I think there's a valid point to shoot the 5th shotgun round or take a miss.

JMO..

[macinaw]

MT,

 

 

I don't think it was good stage writing; which leads to bad interpitation of what to do.

 

 

It would have been good to have it clearified in the stage description on what to do if plates fall without being hit.

 

Even more so when the shooter misses with pistol or rifle and has to make up the shot.

 

I know plate racks can give and take. Do you think its fair that a shooter gets a free be when other shooters hit the target with

 

their pistol or rifle?

[Griff]

Perfect understanding of a perfect plan does not always yield perfect performance. Shooter had completed the course of fire with the REQUIRED number of rounds, prior miss notwithstanding. No further shooting was required per stage instructions, Stage Conventions or Rule Books.

 

Hang the spotter... flog the RO/TO and give the shooter a "one free miss" for future application.

 

BTW, the stage was well written, target selection wasn't. Yes, if a target falls without intent and shooter has no available target to complete the round count... he shoots where it was... CANNOT get a miss for that target... but, that t'weren't the case here... the required round count had been satisfied... check your RO/Miss flow chart. Don't improvise with what YOU think is right, or fair... you're biased.. not a bad thing, but it is what it is. The RO/Miss Flow Chart isn't biased... Remember that part about "benefit of doubt goes to the shooter." Have we forgotten that?

[macinaw]

Griff,

 

Thank You! Mac

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Stage was written 4 plus shotgun.

The plus being shots to make up for pistol or rifle misses.

 

Seriously...are you serious?

 

The "+" has nothing to do with the SG clean up rounds...otherwise...why have "+" on stages without KD targets.

 

I'd love to hear your explanation of what 4+ means...

 

And what exactly does BFD mean??????

 

[Curly Red Ryder]

And in any case, it was "the benefit of the shooter", as stated in the rules...

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

I'll add one last finall thought on this. In the past when the plate rack was used and the round count for shotgun was 4+, 6+, etc. If a plate didn't fall or wasn't hit, yet with next shot the shooter knocked down an extra plate, the shooter "NEVER" had to shoot a "+" (extra shot) to make-up for the missed plate. Never, no matter what club I shot at. As long as the required shots were fired. Personally, I've shot the plate rack and with first shot knocked em all down and shot the other were they were. I've also missed with first shot, and with next shot knocked sometimes several down. Yet never been asked to make up the missed plate with a (+) shot, at any club. Nor ever seen other shooters have to. This is a first for me in seeing this.

Sure it say "Rifle and Pistol misses can be made up with shotgun", then it says round count shotgun 4+ rounds to knock plates down, instructions are clearly written, "with shotgun "clean" remaining plates from the plate rack", (now if even though the shooter had hit 2 plates and they went down) would you require the shooter to shoot an extra shot (there are only 4 plates left standing) if he missed a plate with the shotgun, yet he knocked down 2 plates later with one shotgun shell. In other words, he shot the minimun 4 shotgun required ammo count, missed a plate yet all plates were down with 4 shots? MT

[Cypress Sun]

Shooter shot 4 SG shots (as required), all plates are down. Stop shooting, pick up your long guns and head to the unloading table.........how could the call be any different?

[Sebec Ranger]

Round count 10 pistols, 10Rifle and 4+ shotgun.(There are 3 rifle targets, 3 pistol targets, and 6 plates on rack) With rifle shooter sweeps 3 targets 3 times, with 10 rnd. shoots a plate off rack. With pistol repeat rifle sequence. Then with shotgun "clean the remaining plates from the plate rack". The controversy came up when a shooter missed a plate with either rifle or pistol and when he shot his 4, As required minimun shotgun rds., 2 plates went down with one of the rnds., not requiring any more shells, yet 1 of the 3 spotters, yelled he needed to shoot 1 more shotgun shell to make up for the missed plate by the rifle or pistol, which he did after a long hesitation. Yet, as written, with the shotgun "clean the remaining plates from the plate rack", which he did with 4, instead of 5. Scenario as written, did not call for shooting any extras, just clean remaining plates off rack.

Sorry, but I never thought I would get into one of these.

Your call?

MT

[Sebec Ranger]

The key word is 4+ S/G, the falling target was a target failure. Spotter made the correct call.

 

How did it end up?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello,

 

The SG shell count 4+ (without other instructions) means at least for shells must be shot. It you get all the targets down with three, you must shoot one more or take a miss, just like an ejected rifle round must be replaced or you take a miss.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

I like this stage, and I'll probably use it. For the shotgun round count, I'll say something like, "As many as you need to take down all remaining plates."

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Hello,

 

The SG shell count 4+ (without other instructions) means at least for shells must be shot. It you get all the targets down with three, you must shoot one more or take a miss, just like an ejected rifle round must be replaced or you take a miss.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

According to original post, shooter shot 4 shotgun rounds, so shooter got all the targets, shot 4 shotgun rounds, and should have been allowed to quit. Spotter got it wrong and shooter should have gotten offered a reshoot by the RO. What am I missing? At a recent very large match with 10 pistol knockdowns-no order given, I saw at least two folks knock down two plates with a single shot, then miss a plate or fail to knock one down. Now having an extra pistol round (from plate that fell without a shot) they used it to re-engage the one that didn't fall, shot the stage clean with no shot gun make ups needed (SG make up on seperate SG target for pistol knock down targets not down no matter the reason).

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

According to original post, shooter shot 4 shotgun rounds, so shooter got all the targets, shot 4 shotgun rounds, and should have been allowed to quit. Spotter got it wrong and shooter should have gotten offered a reshoot by the RO. What am I missing? At a recent very large match with 10 pistol knockdowns-no order given, I saw at least two folks knock down two plates with a single shot, then miss a plate or fail to knock one down. Now having an extra pistol round (from plate that fell without a shot) they used it to re-engage the one that didn't fall, shot the stage clean with no shot gun make ups needed (SG make up on seperate SG target for pistol knock down targets not down no matter the reason).

In your constant attempts to make me look ... You're missing the fact that my post substantiates a reshoot because the TO made the shooter shoot 5.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Allie & GCK

I'm not sure, but I think he was merely agreeing with you.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

It is written Shoot CAN make-up misses with the shotgun ,,,,,, He did !!!

Shooter MUST shoot 4 shotshells ,,,,, He did !!! All plates Must be knocked down ,,,,, They were !!!

 

NO NEED TO SHOOT THAT LAST SHOT !!!

 

Reshoot and the good shooter should be cautioned .....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Good shooter, bad shooter, middle of the road shooter, it doesn't matter what kind of shooter a person is, it matters whether or not they know the rules of the game…or at least have the ability to look up the rules of the game. One shooter's "opinion" is no better than another's based upon their ability to shoot.

By far, most agree that the shooter met the requirements of the stage without the 5^th shotgun round, I think even Macinaw now. Griff pointed out where to go (the rules) to determine the correct call. Good on him.

[Willy Whiskers]

I was shooting with Macanaw today and he told me about this thread about a disputed stage. He mentioned it to me as I was the stage writer and I was one of the spotters for the shooter in question. Mac thought I would have as good a position on the issue as there is. I’m including a copy of the actual stage for all to see. Besides me the other spotters were Kid Romeo and another member of our posse. Marshall Troop was kibitzing during the stage. The shooter in question also shot with Mac and me today and when asked had no dispute about the way the stage was called or how he was treated.

 

As the stage was fired, the shooter missed the shot at the plate with his rifle -hence he had one additional shot to make up with the shotgun if he wanted a clean stage. He also missed the shot at the plate with his pistol, so now he had TWO plates to drop with his shotgun if he wanted a clean stage. When he want to his shotgun there were already four shotgun rounds called for in the stage plus the additional misses he had to make up. The round count was now 6 shotgun for a clean stage. This is how all the spotters read it and called it. As it turned out the shooter did make up all his misses by shooting the required 6 rounds and leaving no plates up on the rack.

 

If a plate(s) fell in advertently during the shotgun stage or if they all fell for that matter without being shot the shooter still had to expend 6 shotgun rounds to quality for a clean stage. If he had NOT missed the rifle and pistol plate shots then he would only have had to shoot 4 plates in 4 shotgun rounds. Even if the wind had blown all the plates or they had not reset the plate rack, he could not have just walked away, he would still have expended the minimum number of shotgun rounds…however, in this particular case he had to shot 6 rounds and not just 4. Willy Whisker.

 

Gunny Semper Fi: Stage 6 Bay 5

Round Count: 10 pistol, 10 rifle, 4+ shotgun.

 

Story: Though Gunny had saved the attaché the squad’s attack drove the other Tong back into the mine. So, our heroes had to take cover behind some rocks. Gunny opened fire on Tong and they dropped their weapons as they were caught in a crossfire. Cmd. Galveston and his mission were saved, Gunny and his squad put Billy Wong out of business and the legend of Gunny Semper Fi grew just a little more.

 

Directions: Shooter standing at right Gun Rack rifle at port arms with 10 rounds. Shotgun staged on right Gun Rack open and empty with 4+ rounds. Pistols Holstered with 5 rounds each.

 

Procedure: When shooter is ready state your line: Another Marine victory

 

ATB – With rifle sweep the targets three times from Left to Right, then shoot one plate off the plate rack. Place rifle on Gun Rack open and empty. With shotgun move to the table place shotgun down open and empty with muzzle pointed down range. Remember the 170 rule and watch your muzzle. With pistols repeat the rifle sequence. Holster pistols. With shotgun clean the remaining plates from the plate rack. Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I was shooting with Macanaw today and he told me about this thread about a disputed stage. He mentioned it to me as I was the stage writer and I was one of the spotters for the shooter in question. Mac thought I would have as good a position on the issue as there is. I’m including a copy of the actual stage for all to see. Besides me the other spotters were Kid Romeo and another member of our posse. Marshall Troop was kibitzing during the stage. The shooter in question also shot with Mac and me today and when asked had no dispute about the way the stage was called or how he was treated.

 

As the stage was fired, the shooter missed the shot at the plate with his rifle -hence he had one additional shot to make up with the shotgun if he wanted a clean stage. He also missed the shot at the plate with his pistol, so now he had TWO plates to drop with his shotgun if he wanted a clean stage. When he want to his shotgun there were already four shotgun rounds called for in the stage plus the additional misses he had to make up. The round count was now 6 shotgun for a clean stage. This is how all the spotters read it and called it. As it turned out the shooter did make up all his misses by shooting the required 6 rounds and leaving no plates up on the rack.

 

If a plate(s) fell in advertently during the shotgun stage or if they all fell for that matter without being shot the shooter still had to expend 6 shotgun rounds to quality for a clean stage. If he had NOT missed the rifle and pistol plate shots then he would only have had to shoot 4 plates in 4 shotgun rounds. Even if the wind had blown all the plates or they had not reset the plate rack, he could not have just walked away, he would still have expended the minimum number of shotgun rounds…however, in this particular case he had to shot 6 rounds and not just 4. Willy Whisker.

 

Gunny Semper Fi: Stage 6 Bay 5

Round Count: 10 pistol, 10 rifle, 4+ shotgun.

 

Story: Though Gunny had saved the attaché the squad’s attack drove the other Tong back into the mine. So, our heroes had to take cover behind some rocks. Gunny opened fire on Tong and they dropped their weapons as they were caught in a crossfire. Cmd. Galveston and his mission were saved, Gunny and his squad put Billy Wong out of business and the legend of Gunny Semper Fi grew just a little more.

 

Directions: Shooter standing at right Gun Rack rifle at port arms with 10 rounds. Shotgun staged on right Gun Rack open and empty with 4+ rounds. Pistols Holstered with 5 rounds each.

 

Procedure: When shooter is ready state your line: Another Marine victory

 

ATB – With rifle sweep the targets three times from Left to Right, then shoot one plate off the plate rack. Place rifle on Gun Rack open and empty. With shotgun move to the table place shotgun down open and empty with muzzle pointed down range. Remember the 170 rule and watch your muzzle. With pistols repeat the rifle sequence. Holster pistols. With shotgun clean the remaining plates from the plate rack. Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun.

This description would indicate to me that the shooter would not have needed to shoot 2 additional shots.

 

Where does it say that an extra shotgun shot would be required if you miss the KD?

 

KD's down?

 

Yes=Stop

No=Extra Shotgun shot

 

Your usage of the "+" is not a common usage. Common understanding is that the number of rounds is the minimum that MUST be fired. The + means that the shooter can make up any misses.

 

Shooter's can not read the mind of the Stage Writer...

 

[Griff]

I was shooting with Macanaw today and he told me about this thread about a disputed stage. He mentioned it to me as I was the stage writer and I was one of the spotters for the shooter in question. Mac thought I would have as good a position on the issue as there is. I'm including a copy of the actual stage for all to see. Besides me the other spotters were Kid Romeo and another member of our posse. Marshall Troop was kibitzing during the stage. The shooter in question also shot with Mac and me today and when asked had no dispute about the way the stage was called or how he was treated.

 

As the stage was fired, the shooter missed the shot at the plate with his rifle -hence he had one additional shot to make up with the shotgun if he wanted a clean stage. He also missed the shot at the plate with his pistol, so now he had TWO plates to drop with his shotgun if he wanted a clean stage. When he want to his shotgun there were already four shotgun rounds called for in the stage plus the additional misses he had to make up. The round count was now 6 shotgun for a clean stage. This is how all the spotters read it and called it. As it turned out the shooter did make up all his misses by shooting the required 6 rounds and leaving no plates up on the rack.

 

If a plate(s) fell in advertently during the shotgun stage or if they all fell for that matter without being shot the shooter still had to expend 6 shotgun rounds to quality for a clean stage. If he had NOT missed the rifle and pistol plate shots then he would only have had to shoot 4 plates in 4 shotgun rounds. Even if the wind had blown all the plates or they had not reset the plate rack, he could not have just walked away, he would still have expended the minimum number of shotgun rounds…however, in this particular case he had to shot 6 rounds and not just 4. Willy Whisker.

 

Gunny Semper Fi: Stage 6 Bay 5

Round Count: 10 pistol, 10 rifle, 4+ shotgun.

 

Story: Though Gunny had saved the attaché the squad's attack drove the other Tong back into the mine. So, our heroes had to take cover behind some rocks. Gunny opened fire on Tong and they dropped their weapons as they were caught in a crossfire. Cmd. Galveston and his mission were saved, Gunny and his squad put Billy Wong out of business and the legend of Gunny Semper Fi grew just a little more.

 

Directions: Shooter standing at right Gun Rack rifle at port arms with 10 rounds. Shotgun staged on right Gun Rack open and empty with 4+ rounds. Pistols Holstered with 5 rounds each.

 

Procedure: When shooter is ready state your line: Another Marine victory

 

ATB – With rifle sweep the targets three times from Left to Right, then shoot one plate off the plate rack. Place rifle on Gun Rack open and empty. With shotgun move to the table place shotgun down open and empty with muzzle pointed down range. Remember the 170 rule and watch your muzzle. With pistols repeat the rifle sequence. Holster pistols. With shotgun clean the remaining plates from the plate rack. Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun.

Willy Whiskers,

 

I'm going to have to assume that the rack contained SIX plates. Given your description of the events, the shooter would have all six plates remaining at the conclusion of rifle and pistol strings. Correct?

 

At his first shotgun shot (or 2nd, 3rd or 4th, it don't matter), if additonal plates fall, the shooter only has that many targets left. If after firing 4 shotgun shots all the plates were down, NO further shots are required per the rules, AND the reading of your stage as written above. It has been thus since the beginning of time immortal. Yes, shooter gets a "by"... due to either great shot placement or blind stupid luck. Read my post above for the rules and Miss Flow Chart. As for if all six targets had fallen on his first shotgun shot... he would have, according to the scenario, had to shoot THREE more shotgun shots... kinda like free misses... or as I like to think of it... free practice on loading the shotgun under the timer!

 

I will say this... I really like your stage, but, it is precisely for scenarios like this that use of plate racks is discouraged. They are hard to regulate for the wide variety of ammo used by various competitors in a match. I will also add, that IF... you had been using individual KDs for targets, the controversy wouldn't be probable... possible, yes... but not very likely. And you would be correct... the shooter would have had SIX targets standing and would have HAD to fire SIX shotgun targets.

 

The above is predicated on my imperfect understanding of the events. What Phantom said.

[Ziggady Zag, SASS #67251]

Willy Whiskers,

 

I'm going to have to assume that the rack contained SIX plates. Given your description of the events, the shooter would have all six plates remaining at the conclusion of rifle and pistol strings. Correct?

 

At his first shotgun shot (or 2nd, 3rd or 4th, it don't matter), if additonal plates fall, the shooter only has that many targets left. If after firing 4 shotgun shots all the plates were down, NO further shots are required per the rules, AND the reading of your stage as written above. It has been thus since the beginning of time immortal. Yes, shooter gets a "by"... due to either great shot placement or blind stupid luck. Read my post above for the rules and Miss Flow Chart. As for if all six targets had fallen on his first shotgun shot... he would have, according to the scenario, had to shoot THREE more shotgun shots... kinda like free misses... or as I like to think of it... free practice on loading the shotgun under the timer!

 

I will say this... I really like your stage, but, it is precisely for scenarios like this that use of plate racks is discouraged. They are hard to regulate for the wide variety of ammo used by various competitors in a match. I will also add, that IF... you had been using individual KDs for targets, the controversy wouldn't be probable... possible, yes... but not very likely. And you would be correct... the shooter would have had SIX targets standing and would have HAD to fire SIX shotgun targets.

 

The above is predicated on my imperfect understanding of the events. What Phantom said.

Griff, no you're not correct...( EDIT.. sorry you ARE correct according to his description, two were left up because of a rifle and pistol miss at these plates, my mistake)

 

According to the stage, the tenth rifle shot should have knocked down a plate. The tenth pistol shot should have knocked down a plate. That should have left only 4 plates remaining. Those were for the 4 shotgun rounds. "clean the remaining plates from the plate rack" means knock down the remaining 4 shotgun plates.

 

According to the OP, one of the rifle/pistol shots missed a plate.. that left 5 plates remaining.

According to the stage description, you could make up the miss by knocking it down (the missed plate) with the shotgun. "Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun." Unless the "can" means the shooter doesn't have to if he doesn't want to.

 

The shooter knocks down his 4 shotgun targets with 4 shots. Since the fifth plate fell (wind, vibration, whatever) you shoot where it was to make up for the miss and get a clean stage. Because as soon as the shooter missed the plate with his rifle or pistol, the 4+ immediately became a 5+ shotgun stage.

 

That's how I read the stage description. Sorry if I'm still not getting it. If PWB says I'm not getting it according to how the stage was written, I'll go sit in the corner and have a serious talk with myself.

 

I cannot understand how you get credit for making up a missed target by not engaging the makeup target.

I agree about using a plate rack in this manner. At our club, I give the shooter 10 shots to knock down the 6 plates. Leftover shots are dumped on a dump target. Plates still remaining are made up with the shotgun on a separate shotgun target.

[Ziggady Zag, SASS #67251]

This description would indicate to me that the shooter would not have needed to shoot 2 additional shots.

But he had 2 misses according to WW.

 

Where does it say that an extra shotgun shot would be required if you miss the KD?

Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun.

 

KD's down?

There should have been 6 plates remaining, 2 for the misses and 4 for the shotgun.

If 2 plates fell down without engaging them, they're considered hits? Is that what I'm missing?

 

Yes=Stop

No=Extra Shotgun shot

 

Your usage of the "+" is not a common usage. Common understanding is that the number of rounds is the minimum that MUST be fired. The + means that the shooter can make up any misses.

He should have shot 2 extra since he had 2 misses.

 

Shooter's can not read the mind of the Stage Writer...

Agreed. But I didn't have and problem with the stage description. I would have shot 2 extra shotguns if I had 2 misses. If a plate fell, I would have shot where it was. What don't I understand? I do apologize if I'm being stupid.

 

[Ziggady Zag, SASS #67251]

I was shooting with Macanaw today and he told me about this thread about a disputed stage. He mentioned it to me as I was the stage writer and I was one of the spotters for the shooter in question. Mac thought I would have as good a position on the issue as there is. I’m including a copy of the actual stage for all to see. Besides me the other spotters were Kid Romeo and another member of our posse. Marshall Troop was kibitzing during the stage. The shooter in question also shot with Mac and me today and when asked had no dispute about the way the stage was called or how he was treated.

 

As the stage was fired, the shooter missed the shot at the plate with his rifle -hence he had one additional shot to make up with the shotgun if he wanted a clean stage. He also missed the shot at the plate with his pistol, so now he had TWO plates to drop with his shotgun if he wanted a clean stage. When he want to his shotgun there were already four shotgun rounds called for in the stage plus the additional misses he had to make up. The round count was now 6 shotgun for a clean stage. This is how all the spotters read it and called it. As it turned out the shooter did make up all his misses by shooting the required 6 rounds and leaving no plates up on the rack.

 

If a plate(s) fell in advertently during the shotgun stage or if they all fell for that matter without being shot the shooter still had to expend 6 shotgun rounds to quality for a clean stage. If he had NOT missed the rifle and pistol plate shots then he would only have had to shoot 4 plates in 4 shotgun rounds. Even if the wind had blown all the plates or they had not reset the plate rack, he could not have just walked away, he would still have expended the minimum number of shotgun rounds…however, in this particular case he had to shot 6 rounds and not just 4. Willy Whisker.

 

Gunny Semper Fi: Stage 6 Bay 5

Round Count: 10 pistol, 10 rifle, 4+ shotgun.

 

Story: Though Gunny had saved the attaché the squad’s attack drove the other Tong back into the mine. So, our heroes had to take cover behind some rocks. Gunny opened fire on Tong and they dropped their weapons as they were caught in a crossfire. Cmd. Galveston and his mission were saved, Gunny and his squad put Billy Wong out of business and the legend of Gunny Semper Fi grew just a little more.

 

Directions: Shooter standing at right Gun Rack rifle at port arms with 10 rounds. Shotgun staged on right Gun Rack open and empty with 4+ rounds. Pistols Holstered with 5 rounds each.

 

Procedure: When shooter is ready state your line: Another Marine victory

 

ATB – With rifle sweep the targets three times from Left to Right, then shoot one plate off the plate rack. Place rifle on Gun Rack open and empty. With shotgun move to the table place shotgun down open and empty with muzzle pointed down range. Remember the 170 rule and watch your muzzle. With pistols repeat the rifle sequence. Holster pistols. With shotgun clean the remaining plates from the plate rack. Note: Rifle and pistol misses can be made up with shotgun.

WW, thanks for your reply. It makes sense to me when he missed the rifle and pistol plate targets on his 10th shot as you describe.

 

The only question I have on your scenario as written is.. what would have happened if the shooter missed a rifle target, say number 3, in his sweep but hit the plate target on his 10th shot?

same with his pistol.. missed number 3 but hit the plate for his 10th? It seems like he doesn't have an opportunity to make up those 2 misses if he has to shoot 4 shotgun rounds at the remaining 4 plate targets. There wouldn't be any plates left to shoot for the makeups. Maybe this is why there is some misunderstanding. Is this where he gets a free miss?

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Howdy,

 

Seems the intent may have been to allow a pistol or rifle miss on the plate rack to be made up with shotgun and the note should have said, "Note: Rifle and pistol misses on the plate rack can be made up with shotgun." No more plates on plate rack = no more shots needed.Misses on other targets are misses.

 

Hasta Luego,

Keystone

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Well then I take it back. It was very poorly written, or should have been explained to shooters that any misses with rifle or pistols would "require an additional shotgun round" for misses,the( +, has been used in all your ammo counts for shotguns since I can remember, allowing for targets not down, since shotgun part of stages are almost a gimme, and never has there had to be an extra shot fired when there have been misses beforehand, and following shot knocked 2, or more down) which were not. As to spotters, Old World Wanderer also didn't agree with call. Willy, even you asked Kid Romeo for an explanation,(he was the only one to make the call) seems the story changes. As to Armadillo the shooter, he was up-set. Even the J. Bird the range master, TO, didn't understand the extra shot. There was a lot of hesitation at the line before Armadillo shot his extra round. The least, he should have been given a re-shoot. MT

Again, it should have been stated to shooters that an extra round must be added to count and fired for misses by either or both pistol and rifle. Also, Armodillo wasn't the only one to miss a rifle or pistol target, how come I didn't have to fire an extra round????

[Willy Whiskers]

In our club, after I write a match, the entire posse reviews the match line for line at our posse meeting (changes are made if needed), then when we hang the steel we go over each stage again (changes are made if needed), then there is a walk through of the entire match and finally there is an RO walk through prior to the match. This was the procedure we followed for the stage in question. The point about rifle and pistol misses only being the ones made up with the shotgun was covered in the RO walk through. One can always learn so in the future I will pay special attention to the wording for a stage like this.

 

Since I've been in SASS I've learned a few things.

1: If you have a spare gun - bring it.

2: Never try anything new at an annual

3: There is no target too large or too close to miss

3: No matter how well a stage is written and reviewed there will be someone who will misunderstand it and screw it up. WW

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Willy,

I would suggest that if you want to use the plate rack in this fashion that you add a line to your instructions.

 

"The number of plates that remain standing after the rifle and pistols are shot will be the minimum number of shotgun rounds fired for the stage."

 

Beyond that any call other then clean is wrong based on the wording of the instructions in their current form.

 

Stan

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Plate racks always add issues to any match that must be dealt with. Many many times plates not engaged fall down when another plate is hit. The stage instructions or Posse Marshall read through needs to cover this situation completely. At a recent match we had 10 pistol plates to be shot in any order. All plates had to fall and if they did not, shooter could make them up with his shotgun on a special make up target. We were also told that if a plate fell down not engaged, wait to shoot the now extra round downrange, in case that round was needed to make up for a missed plate later in the sequence of 10 plates-but 10 pistol rounds total must be fired somewhere. We were also told that it did not matter whether shot hit target or not, it could still be made up with shotgun if it did not fall. Short version, 10 targets must fall with no more than 10 pistol rounds or a make up shot(s) must be attempted or a miss would occur.

 

My wife came to the line, shot the first plate, it fell plus the second plate. She did not shoot "where it was when down" second plate as per instructions, but on second pistol missed a plate completely and was able to shoot it again with extra round. She did not have to make up any plates with shotgun as they were all down-and shot the required 10 rounds. As an aside we were also told there would be no misses assessed on shots on the make up shotgun target as long as shooter engaged it the requisite number of times-almost impossible to see a silver pellet.

 

Now what does this mean, it means that if you have a stage with falling plates no matter the gun you better be darn clear how you want the shooter to respond if a plate does not fall, or if more than one falls on one shot. Every time I see this set up, the shooter seems to be instructed differently. These instructions were unique to this match only and I am sure other match directors would handle it differently. The point is, the earlier stage description was not complete IMHO and needed clarifications.

 

Interesting side note, her 2 for 1 was the only example on our large posse, and she clearly was shooting the lightest pistol loads.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

dang interesting post... thanks MT. I started with the same confusion "shoot where it was". Had I been a spotter I may have called it the same way yours did since the normal "shoot where it was" or/and "must engage" rules are most common.

 

However, after reading the arguments I think now that the correct call is the majority i.e. RESHOOT. As lucky as a popper clay that comes out broken.

[Pigeonroost Slim , #36403]

I guess some of you can see word in the OP the rest of us can not.

 

If all the bad guys are down, why waste powder and lead. Fair has nothing to do with it, life ain't fair. Would be best if al spotters spotted hits and kpet their mouths shut other than safety calls. Its supposed to be a fun game, not a danged court room debate.

 

prs

[Griff]

In our club, after I write a match, the entire posse reviews the match line for line at our posse meeting (changes are made if needed), then when we hang the steel we go over each stage again (changes are made if needed), then there is a walk through of the entire match and finally there is an RO walk through prior to the match. This was the procedure we followed for the stage in question. The point about rifle and pistol misses only being the ones made up with the shotgun was covered in the RO walk through. One can always learn so in the future I will pay special attention to the wording for a stage like this.

 

Since I've been in SASS I've learned a few things.

1: If you have a spare gun - bring it.

2: Never try anything new at an annual

3: There is no target too large or too close to miss

3: No matter how well a stage is written and reviewed there will be someone who will misunderstand it and screw it up. WW

Willy,

 

Same things I've learned... plus regardless of the stage writer's intent, it's how that's interpreted that really matters. One of the things I had drilled into me as a beginning stage writer was to ALWAYS understand that "may" and "can" are permissive verbs, "shall" and "must" leave no doubt.

 

According to stage conventions, by saying "...pistol and rifle misses CAN be made up with the shotgun, you leave that open-ended. In fact, a cowboy could simply quit shoooting after the 4th SG round and take the misses.

 

And, yes; while it may SEEM unfair that a cowboy catches a lucky breaK, it's thatta way in all sports... that shift in the wind in the bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, bases loaded, down by 3, and what only moments before woulda been a high pop fly, now sails over the fence.

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

Several times in this thread it has been said essentially that you can't just back out the last shot and give the shooter the time as if they had stopped when they should have.

 

Assuming a stage where the shooter was interfered with, loads and shoots an unnecessary round due to erroneous instruction by a mythical TO, is there a specific reason that the timer can't be run through the shot strings and use the time before the last shot? (By this I mean based on the rules as I am well aware that the timer is capable of this mechanically.)

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Several times in this thread it has been said essentially that you can't just back out the last shot and give the shooter the time as if they had stopped when they should have.

 

Assuming a stage where the shooter was interfered with, loads and shoots an unnecessary round due to erroneous instruction by a mythical TO, is there a specific reason that the timer can't be run through the shot strings and use the time before the last shot? (By this I mean based on the rules as I am well aware that the timer is capable of this mechanically.)

 

This last weekend a cap and ball shooter holstered his pistol after shooting only 4 rounds. Stage ended, shooter started walking toward unloading table and as RO started to give the time to the scorekeeper (but did not finish), everyone started saying shooter needed to shoot his last round. It suddenly became obvious he could not just go to the unloading table to do remove the round. At that, the RO asked him to come back to the line to fire it downrange and that added that last shot to the timer. TO said he had to look back at the timer to get his correct time (without the last shot) plus a miss for shot not fired originally. Looks like the best way to do it, other than a reshoot which was not needed. In this case we were lucky as the score keeper was on her toes and had remembered the score the TO told to the shooter at the stage end and it matched the actual timer, minus one shot.