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Guest diablo slim shootist

live round under hammer

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Guest diablo slim shootist

ok this is confusing

shooter starts with rifle shoots 10 rounds

lay rifle down on ledge of Gallows

pulls 1st pistol and cocks pistol

T.O. says whoa

because he thinks rifle is going to fall or break 170

it does not-but shooter has stopped and asks what is wrong

after discussion a re shoot is offered -shooter hands off

pistols to RO (me)and i carry them muzzles up back to the loading table

where i find that 1st pistol has live round under a lowered hammer!

what is the call if any? Diablo Slim

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ok this is confusing

shooter starts with rifle shoots 10 rounds

lay rifle down on ledge of Gallows

pulls 1st pistol and cocks pistol

T.O. says whoa

because he thinks rifle is going to fall or break 170

it does not-but shooter has stopped and asks what is wrong

after discussion a re shoot is offered -shooter hands off

pistols to RO (me)and i carry them muzzles up back to the loading table

where i find that 1st pistol has live round under a lowered hammer!

what is the call if any? Diablo Slim

 

 

No call. A re-shoot is in order. The first pistol had been cocked but not fired by order of the TO, of course a live round would be under the hammer. No call.

 

Roy

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ok this is confusing

shooter starts with rifle shoots 10 rounds

lay rifle down on ledge of Gallows

pulls 1st pistol and cocks pistol

T.O. says whoa

because he thinks rifle is going to fall or break 170

it does not-but shooter has stopped and asks what is wrong

after discussion a re shoot is offered -shooter hands off

pistols to RO (me)and i carry them muzzles up back to the loading table

where i find that 1st pistol has live round under a lowered hammer!

what is the call if any? Diablo Slim

 

 

Without looking, didn't they change that rule to allow decocking to make safe UNDER RO SUPERVISION? If so, then it gets muddy. the RO stopped the shooter, the shooter de-cocked, but the RO apparantly didn't know it at the time..... I'm thinking due to a lack of communicating intent and achieving a state of "supervision", which implies asking and getting consent, the shooter who just goes ahead and lowers the hammer on a live round has bought himself a SDQ.

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From the RO1 manual,

 

"De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line

except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision

of a stage officer. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification."

 

Now I realize that the shooter did not intend to do this, but the rule stands. I might suggest some training for the RO as well. I question as to why he interupted the shooters progress, and then allowed him to lower the hammer on a live round. The gun should have been pointed in a safe direction (downrange), the round expended, then the gun holstered. Although the shooter stopped at the RO's command, he should know the rule as well.

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stage DQ, cannot decock a pistol over a live round. he should have fired the round to make pistol safe then handed them off.

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Without looking, didn't they change that rule to allow decocking to make safe UNDER RO SUPERVISION? If so, then it gets muddy. the RO stopped the shooter, the shooter de-cocked, but the RO apparantly didn't know it at the time..... I'm thinking due to a lack of communicating intent and achieving a state of "supervision", which implies asking and getting consent, the shooter who just goes ahead and lowers the hammer on a live round has bought himself a SDQ.

 

 

The pistols were safely handed off decockled and under RO supervision, and probubly under RO direction. If the RO had an issue with the pistols being decocked he should have taken control of the situation immediately. I still say no call, but I may not have all the facts straight. Remember, the RO caused this whole incident, the rifle did not fall.

 

Roy

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The pistols were safely handed off decockled and under RO supervision, and probubly under RO direction. If the RO had an issue with the pistols being decocked he should have taken control of the situation immediately. I still say no call, but I may not have all the facts straight. Remember, the RO caused this whole incident, the rifle did not fall.

 

Roy

 

 

Doesn't matter WHY he was stopped. Once the command "whoa" is issued, ya FREEZE, and ya don't do a damned thing until and unless yer told to, especially pulling back a hammer and squeezing a trigger to decock a handgun. the proper act on the part of the shooter is to sing out "cocked pistol" to the RO, while standing motionless, the gun pointed downrange, and have the RO DIRECT HIM to either dump the round into the berm (which would not have hurt his score if he was awarded a reshoot) or to point the gun into the berm and decock it if the RO tells him to. That the RO didn't KNOW until the gun got to the ULT that it had been decocked means there was no "decocking under direct supervision" and obviously no round dumped into the berm.

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From the RO1 manual,

 

"De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line

except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision

of a stage officer. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification."

 

Now I realize that the shooter did not intend to do this, but the rule stands. I might suggest some training for the RO as well. I question as to why he interupted the shooters progress, and then allowed him to lower the hammer on a live round. The gun should have been pointed in a safe direction (downrange), the round expended, then the gun holstered. Although the shooter stopped at the RO's command, he should know the rule as well.

+1... bummer.... filed under SH** HAPPENS. This isn't a "don't be a hardass" grey area... it doesn't get anymore critical than proper handling with a live round under hammer.

 

Shooter should get a courtesy re-shoot if it's a monthly, but he still has a SDQ as penalties carry onto the reshoot while misses don't. RO's have to remember to handle the CRISIS first- make everything safe- then figure out the best way to proceed. There was no way that the shooter could have changed the result of an improperly re-staged long gun since he had already drawn and cocked the next gun anyway.

 

In my view if the RO has to catch a long gun to keep it from breaking the 170 it's a done deal anyway.. SDQ.

 

Glad no one got hurt.

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This is something I have learnt as an RO, once someone has cocked a firearm, I don't say a work, unless a cease fire or such has or needs to be called. Yes, I know that the shooter has until the next firearm is shot to correct something, however, In my experience, the shooter usually ends up with a SDQ.

 

In this case, since he de-cocked without RO supervision, SDQ, tough medicene, better learnt at a local than a big shoot. :rolleyes:

 

cc

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This is something I have learnt as an RO, once someone has cocked a firearm, I don't say a work, unless a cease fire or such has or needs to be called. Yes, I know that the shooter has until the next firearm is shot to correct something, however, In my experience, the shooter usually ends up with a SDQ.

 

In this case, since he de-cocked without RO supervision, SDQ, tough medicene, better learnt at a local than a big shoot. :rolleyes:

 

cc

 

I agree, once a shooter has a hammer back on a live round. Let them finish what they're doing unless it's something unsafe. Things only get worse when you try to stop them.

 

 

LL'

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Interesting thread.

 

In an ideal world, the shooter would have announced "cocked pistol" as said earlier, AND, the RO would know it was cocked even before it was said. Then the RO would instruct that the round be sent into the berm and a reshoot awarded. OR, the shooter isn't stopped and let the chips (rifle) fall where it may. Tough to see a rifle you think is falling and not do anything about it though...

 

Page 6 of the RO I manual, item "SAFELY" #3 - WATCH THE GUN.

Granted, that's kind of what caused this question, RO was still watching the rifle and not the pistol. Since I have perfect hindsight, watching the loaded gun seems more important than the one whose ammunition has been expended.

 

But, stuff happens fast and in the heat of an "uh oh" moment we aren't always perfect.

 

So, bottom line is than an SDQ is earned as soon as the shooter decocked the pistol on to a live round. And, I imagine the TO slaps himself on the wrist for the whole affair.

 

Grizz

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Amazing!! The TO screws this all up but the shooter pays for it.

 

I could care less what the rules say, once the TO takes charge of the situation as far as I'm concerned he owns it. If that was a new shooter I betcha won't see him again. :rolleyes:

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From the RO1 manual,

 

"De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line

except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision

of a stage officer. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification."

 

Now I realize that the shooter did not intend to do this, but the rule stands. I might suggest some training for the RO as well. I question as to why he interupted the shooters progress, and then allowed him to lower the hammer on a live round. The gun should have been pointed in a safe direction (downrange), the round expended, then the gun holstered. Although the shooter stopped at the RO's command, he should know the rule as well.

 

 

Tell me what tha colored sent. means?

 

 

RRR

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There is no doubt the TO screwed up.

 

But, the OP seems to indicate that he did not direct the shooter to decock.

 

Thusly, when the shooter decocked, he earned the SDQ.

 

Nate - with a new shooter at a monthly match I imagine once things were sorted out it would be handled as a teaching moment, or least it would be at the clubs where I shoot.

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I find it sad that we are talking about a SDQ for a shooter for something that was caused by the TO interference.

But SAFETY rules are rules.

 

But the OP didn't actually say who decocked the pistol. We are left to assume that the shooter did it.

(The devil made me do it.)

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I been wrong before.

 

If me and tha RO heve entered into talking deep enough for a reshoot to be offered then I'm dern sure gonna decock tha revolver at tha line! And if we are in an exchange of words that deeply I think I'm under tha direct supervision of a stage officer. I see No Call and go tha ULT.

 

 

RRR

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There is no doubt the TO screwed up.

 

But, the OP seems to indicate that he did not direct the shooter to decock.

 

Thusly, when the shooter decocked, he earned the SDQ.

 

Nate - with a new shooter at a monthly match I imagine once things were sorted out it would be handled as a teaching moment, or least it would be at the clubs where I shoot.

 

 

I still disagree. Once that TO has distracted that shooter the TO should be prepared to take charge and do whatever it takes to make the situation safe. Whatever the shooter is doing the TO should stop him. The worst thing you can do in an unsafe situation is bounce the control of the situation back and forth between the TO and the flustered shooter.

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I totally understand your viewpoint. The TO should have known the pistol was cocked and directed the shooter to shoot the berm. Absent that, the TO should have observed the shooter decocking the pistol and maybe at that point could have had the shooter cock and fire to make the pistol safe. But none of us are perfect and we all just do the best we can.

 

But, where I'm coming from is that it is ultimately the shooters responsibility for his gun handling. Distracted or not. Once he decocked onto a live round, he earned the SDQ.

 

Good thread, I know I've learned alot.

 

OP - not trying to bash you in any way pard, good on ya for realizing that you could have handled it better and seeking input.

 

Grizz

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Dave ain't no one gonna get upset.

 

As I read it tha only way to get out of tha cocked pistol is ta fire it or under tha direct supervision of a stage officer. (IE decocking it under his supervision)\

 

 

RRR

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Amazing!! The TO screws this all up but the shooter pays for it.

 

I could care less what the rules say, once the TO takes charge of the situation as far as I'm concerned he owns it. If that was a new shooter I betcha won't see him again. :rolleyes:

 

 

That's just it Nate, the TO did NOT get hold of the situation because when he yelled "woah" the shooter did something besides stand there like he was turned to stone. The SHOOTER is wrong because he went ahead and acted like he was back at the neighborhood gravel pit and used his own judgement to decock the gun instead of FOLLOWING THE RULES.

 

Sure, the TO shoulda noticed the cocked gun, or the gun could got cocked just as he yelled "woah", but nevermind how we got to that moment (coulda been a kid ran out on the range, etc that caused the "stop" command) WOAH means "don't do NOTHIN" until and unless yer allowed to. That "stop" command is ironclad and dammit, ya ignore it at yer own peril. IF the shooter woulda paid heed and froze, then he woulda HAD TO get permission to decock or discharge the pistol (or he'd still be standing there). THAT is where the train went off the rails. Before that, the TO made a close judgement call and in the end, THAT coulda been undone with a reshoot. BUT ya can't allow shooters to just go ahead and decock at will, PERIOD.

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Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator

If the RO makes you stop, you stop. If the RO makes you hand off your pistol and reshoot, you do that too.

Once that RO took the responsibilty for that loaded gun away from the shooter it was his or her responsibility. At that point the RO made it a no call for the shooter.

I would say that is the very definition of decocking under supervision. It just wasn't great supervision.

Some of us might have the presence of mind to educate the RO on the spot but that's going to rare.

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That call probably works at your monthly. But, if you try it at EOT or WR I'll bet you get a SDQ or would have to protest. Clearly the RO messed up, but if you re-read the OP.... he wasn't under his direct supervision, in fact, he discovered it was 'hammer on a live round' after he passed it to the ULT.

 

Shooter HAS to have the responsibility to STOP if he's been ordered. Then make safe... PERIOD. It's his finger that's on that trigger.

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As much as I'd hate to make the call, shooter earned a SDQ. I think the MOST important issue to come up out of this is the education of the RO. Once you stop the shooter, by yelling "CEASE FIRE" or "WHOA" or "STOP" or what-have-you, you, as the RO own that stage AND the situation. It is up to you to direct the scene, ask for assistance, and the like. That pistol never should have been handed off to the RO with hammer down on a live round. While I just stated the RO owns the situation, the Shooter is ultimately responsible for his/her actions and firearms. A crucial step in the safety chain was broken or overlooked. Next time, supervise the shooter. Instruct him to clear the weapon or make safe before he hands it off.

 

Steeldust Dan

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So, what would have happened if he got to the ULT and both hammers were down on empty cylinders, and everyone saw him lower the hammer after the pistol was cocked?

 

 

 

LL'

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Well, personally, I damn sure would rather be handed a pistol with a live round under the chamber rather than a cocked pistol with a live round under the chamber. I have to assume the pistol was handed off as it says the RO found the live round, not the unloading table monitor. What the hell was he expecting to find under the hammer? No call to me, but then I don't like to be a hardass, especially if I stopped the action. Now if the shooter had put the pistol back in the holster, that's different.

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I'm going to jump in with, What kind of gun was he shooting? A 2 pin Ruger with a transfer bar, Decocked, no firing pin resting on a live primer. It can't go off even if dropped on the hammer. A Colt or 3 screw Ruger could be handled by the shooter to place the cylinder with the empty chamber under the hammer before moving to the unloading table. The TO needs to watch the shooter until the gun is made SAFE.

 

Big Jake 1001

 

It looks like while I was typing my response, the 2 people above me got in some quick words. Maybe you guys should go back and reread and edit your posts. Guns have one (1) cylinder with six (6) chambers. Handed a gun with live rounds are under the hammer not chambers as stated.

LL; Also the hammers were down on empty chambers, not cylinders, otherwise that would mean the shooter left the loading table with unloaded guns. I know what you meant, but that's not what your are saying. Is this where I put a smiley face? :rolleyes:

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This should be added to the TG's training session at the end of the last days meeting at the Convention as a lesson for all.

 

Shenny

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This should be added to the TG's training session at the end of the last days meeting at the Convention as a lesson for all.

 

Shenny

 

 

It's already a part of RO training. Yer most common instance is when ya make a call for somebody MOVING with a cocked gun. That's a "done right now" deal. Yer job as RO is to STOP EM, then tell em "go ahead and dump the round in the berm, then yer done". This instance we reviewed is a bit different, but not really. ANY time an RO hollers "stop" his first job, before any other, is to insure the gun in the hands of the "frozen" shooter is safe. If ya got a cocked SXS, tell him "open yer shotgun", a cocked rifle, "open yer rifle" a cocked revolver, EITHER dump the round or ON COMMAND ya have em decock. BUT the shoot don't MOVE a finger until told to after the "stop" command. Decock a pistol on yer own, yer done right now.

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I still disagree. Once that TO has distracted that shooter the TO should be prepared to take charge and do whatever it takes to make the situation safe. Whatever the shooter is doing the TO should stop him. The worst thing you can do in an unsafe situation is bounce the control of the situation back and forth between the TO and the flustered shooter.

I agree it's a bad deal, however the shooter decided somewhere in the conversation to decock a loaded revolver without the TO knowing about it, the SDQ happened right then. The only way the shooter should have been able to decock is while to TO is watching them turn the cylinder untill the empty is gonna end up under the hammer, all the while keeping it pointed down range. The best way to deal with it is point it at the berm and go Bang, then the shooter can holster, retrieve the long guns and head to the unloading table. Yes the TO should be prepared to take charge and do whatever it takes to make the situation safe, tell him to point it at the brem and go bang. The TO could have tripped in his spurs on the way to the unloading table and dropped a loaded gun, which we all know can easily go bang, unless it's a Ruger.

 

Jefro

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I agree it's a bad deal, however the shooter decided somewhere in the conversation to decock a loaded revolver without the TO knowing about it, the SDQ happened right then. The only way the shooter should have been able to decock is while to TO is watching them turn the cylinder untill the empty is gonna end up under the hammer, all the while keeping it pointed down range. The best way to deal with it is point it at the berm and go Bang, then the shooter can holster, retrieve the long guns and head to the unloading table. Yes the TO should be prepared to take charge and do whatever it takes to make the situation safe, tell him to point it at the brem and go bang. The TO could have tripped in his spurs on the way to the unloading table and dropped a loaded gun, which we all know can easily go bang, unless it's a Ruger.

 

Jefro

 

____________________

Go Ruger...................................

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in the OP the RO says he carried the pistols back muzzle up. WHY?!?

obviously the RO knew something wasnt right and handled it incorrectly. the RO took control of the pistols and failed to inspect them but carried them muzzles up.

i dont see how the shooter can be held for this one.

no offense intended DS but i'd want a new RO. the shooter never should have been stopped in the first place.

CC

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Maybe the shooter had in mind the rule that "a cocked pistol may never leave the shooter's hand", or some such??

 

As to decocking under supervision of the TO, it seems to me that he was certainly under DIRECT SUPERVISION of the TO who had just halted his shooting. Maybe I misunderstand the term "supervision".

 

Trooper

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ok this is confusing

Confusing is right...too many unaswered questions to make a definitive call based on the given information. IMO.

shooter starts with rifle shoots 10 rounds

lay rifle down on ledge of Gallows

pulls 1st pistol and cocks pistol T.O. says whoa...

1) Was the T/O aware that the pistol was cocked when he stopped the shooter?

...because he thinks rifle is going to fall or break 170

it does not-but shooter has stopped and asks what is wrong

after discussion...

2) What was the condition of the revolver during the "discussion"? (and what exactly was discussed?)

3) At what point was the revolver de-cocked?

...a re shoot is offered

-shooter hands off pistols to RO (me) and i carry them muzzles up back to the loading table

4) Why were the pistols handled in that manner?

5) Why not simply have the shooter reholster them to go to back to the LT?

where i find that 1st pistol has live round under a lowered hammer!

what is the call if any?...

1) Apparently so (based on subsequent actions taken by the T/O) even though T/O's attention was initially focused on the rifle.

2) & 3) It would appear that the shooter may have de-cocked the revolver as soon as the "whoa" (cease fire) command was given?...but, given the proximity of the T/O to the shooter, this could be considered 'under the direct supervision' IF the T/O observed the action. A command/request to do so is not necessary. If so, why was the T/O 'surprised' to find a live round under the hammer at the LT??

4) & 5) It seems that the T/O may have been aware that at least one of the revolvers was in a potentially unsafe condition.

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of a stage officer. The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.
SHB p.23/ROI p.16

 

"...under the direct supervision..." means that the T/O is AWARE of the firearm's condition at all times.

Based on the T/O's method of handling the firearms, this appears to be the case...if so, it's a NO CALL.

IF it is the T/O's position that the shooter decocked the revolver UNsupervised (and the T/O was completely unaware of the fact until the condition of the revolver was discovered at the LT) the call is a SDQ.

Those are the questions I would ask if the DQ call was disputed by the shooter.

IMO (pending addtional information...what is the shooter's side of the story?)

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Guest diablo slim shootist

Lets see if i can clear some small points up

! ther were 3 people involved ,TO,shooter ,and RO

the pistol was a Ruger Black hawk

TO was one of only 3 people who was "qualified to run timer

the other two were the shooter and me (RO)

i was at my cart when this all happened

and walked up on the Gallows and retrieved the pistols

and went to loading table not the unloading table

because he was the last shooter on the stage and it made

since to take them back to the loading area to speed

things up so we could move on to next stage>

 

does any of this matter i dont know but ill bet you guys do

here we go :rolleyes:

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