Need open top/conversion experts!

[Kodiak Bill]

I don’t know what this is and I need help identifying it. Here’s what I think I know:

-It’s an unknown 1860 with an early Richards conversion is some .38 caliber.
-I don’t know if it’s a cap & ball converted or if it was made as a conversion.

-There are early Italian import marks but they’re only on the cylinder, which may or may not be original to the gun.

-The barrel looks sleeved.

-Early Colt 2nd Gen black powder guns were Italian imports, imported by Colt. Could this be one?

-All fonts look funky

-The “1” above the serial number could mean mfg 1945 in Italy?

-brass trigger guard may not be original.

 

I'm sure there’s someone here that knows what’s going on here! PLEASE chime in!!

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

WOW.  I actually hate to admit to being stumped.  But I am.  The Barrel was never a Percussion item or was expertly filled and the ejector assembly is almost an Open Top copy.  The conversion ring also has me stumped although it was secured to the recoil shield with screws Ala the Howell Gated conversions.  It does NOT resemble an ASM conversion nor an AFF gun.  Beyond that, I are stumped.  Sure is nice though.

[Cholla]

https://www.coltforum.com/threads/what-is-right-what-is-wrong-what-is-it.415240/

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

That is really neat.  It looks like a modern conversion of an original gun.  They did not have Allen head scews like those holding on the conversion ring in the 19th Century and the barrel is lined for .38 caliber.  I have never seen an original with a liner and the rifling looks modern compared to the style used in the 1800s.  The rear sight also does not look like how they were done by Colt.

[Kodiak Bill]

Cholla why the link? I’m asking more people, since no one seems to know!

 

I missed you at Bordertown, we were on the same Posse.

 

Larsen, I didn’t notice the Allen head screws. Maybe replacements?

 

everything here is a giant “?”

Edited December 11, 2024 by Kodiak Bill

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I would pull the grips and back strap off and look for markings .

Just Sayin. 

Rooster 

[Cholla]

7 hours ago, Kodiak Bill said:

Cholla why the link? I’m asking more people, since no one seems to know!

 

I missed you at Bordertown, we were on the same Posse.

 

Larsen, I didn’t notice the Allen head screws. Maybe replacements?

 

everything here is a giant “?”

Because the information on the Colt Forum can help those here.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Middle of the knight I thought of "Jay Strite."

 

PLUS ONE for Pettifogger.  It is a "modern" conversion.  I just don't know for certain whodunnit.

[Kodiak Bill]

The plot thickens. The ramrod hole has been filled. So, this started out life as a cap and ball gun. The import marks are on the cartridge cylinder. And it’s .38 Special.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Just for giggles. I looked up the serial number on Colt's website, and this came back...

 

106461

1860 ARMY (.44 CALIBER WITH NAVAL ENGAGEMENT SCENE ON CYLINDER)

1863

 

 

So that would lend credence to the notion that it's an original with a modern conversion.

I'd say it's a unique piece, and worth having.   You say the cylinder is .38 Special, that also tends to support a "modern" conversion.   If it were factory, it'd likely be .38 Long Colt. and the Italian proofmarks on the cylinder prove that it's not the original cylinder

Get a letter.  

Some of these conversions are quite fascinating.  I have an 1860 that was converted to something else at one point, and has been converted AGAIN to .32 S&W with a new barrel, but Colt has no records of the conversion(s).

This gun might be okay for use with smokeless since the cylinder is modern, but I'd still stick with .38 Long Colt/black powder to be safe.
 

Edited December 13, 2024 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Ah well, the Barrel has been sleeved to .38 and to run the .38s, the cylinder has also been sleeved.   With modern metal in the sleeves, the gun will be perfectly safe with .38 ammunition, although I'd be sticking with BP or APP just to be "Cool."  I kinda sorta wish it were mine and I had its mate to go with it.  Even solo, that gun would be hitting the CAS trail you betcha!! (once inna while anyway).

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

On 12/12/2024 at 2:51 PM, Kodiak Bill said:

The import marks are on the cartridge cylinder.

If there are import marks then the gun is at least partially reproduction.  The cylinder looks to me to be in too good of condition.  The cylinder engraving is very sharp and well defined.  These were quite shallow on the originals and there is almost always some wear on an orignal cylinder.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

ABSOLUTELY PLUS ONE for Pettifogger!!

 

Now, If we just knew who made it.

 

Wonder what the possibility is, the gun is a "Nedball" ??

[Kodiak Bill]

That’s what I’m saying! What if, the only part of the gun that has import marks, isn’t original to the gun!

 

It’s pretty clear that this gun started life as a cap and ball. BUT WHAT?!?! Lol

[Cholla]

The font of the serial number is not what Colt used at the period. In my opinion this is a talented craftsman’s gun, but not an original. 

[Lead Monger]

Wouldn’t it be awesome if somebody would produce gated conversion rings with the rear sight and firing pin included. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 minute ago, Lead Monger said:

Wouldn’t it be awesome if somebody would produce gated conversion rings with the rear sight and firing pin included. 

Heck, just JB Weld a rear sight onto a Kirst. 

But I'm thinking the rear sight on the hammer would be in the way of the sight picture and that's probably why Kirsts aren't made that way.

[Cholla]

Someone with skills, a lathe, and a mill can make anything. Look up Roy Huntington on YouTube or the Coltforum and you see stuff he’s done that will have folks scratching their heads decades from now. They look original but aren’t. 

[Kodiak Bill]

I wonder if all the marking are restamped?

[Cholla]

In most cases you can see the old stampings. You’ll see the remains of the old numbers. Some of the markings look to be done with a duplicating machine. If you are truly wanting to know what is original find a scrap metal buyer that has the X-ray unit that details what alloys the parts are made from. Modern steel and bronze is different than those made in the mid to late 1800s. 

[Kid Rich]

If you need screws try Ace Hardware.

kR

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

22 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

So that would lend credence to the notion that it's an original with a modern conversion

Yes, those proof marks on the cylinder scream Colt original. Also love how the frame serial number is on an inserted piece of metal... Definitely original Colt!

 

 

Phantom

[Cholla]

12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes, those proof marks on the cylinder scream Colt original. Also love how the frame serial number is on an inserted piece of metal... Definitely original Colt!

 

 

Phantom

I didn't see that before you mentioned it. Good eye.

 

[watab kid]

i didnt know they did that either , very interesting and learned something new today , thanks phantom , 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

The more we all look at it, the more evidence comes out that it is a Frankengun of unknown origins.   That serial number on an inserted piece of metal raises many questions in my mind about legality.  

That being said, everyone should own at least one Frankengun.  They are quite fun to own.

[Kodiak Bill]

Now I want to know what’s under that piece of metal that I didn’t even notice.

 

legality? It’s a black powder “non” gun.

[Kodiak Bill]

I just thought, I wonder, assuming this is original and was in bad shape, if everything was restamped because it was polished within an inch of its life. Maybe the plate with the s/n on it is because they had to polish the heck out of it and needed to build it back up so it matched the height of the barrel? Idk.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

26 minutes ago, Kodiak Bill said:

Now I want to know what’s under that piece of metal that I didn’t even notice.

 

legality? It’s a black powder “non” gun.

Probably...metal.

 

What makes your gun a "black powder" gun? 

 

Phantom

[Griff]

I'm not so certain that the frame serial number is stamped on an "inserted piece of metal".  If the frame is beveled the light hitting it on that bevel would be reflected back at a lower intensity than that face on to the cameral.  Odd that the trigger guard sticks out past said bevel.  

 

That same serial number comes back to a total of 24 different model Colts.  But... my question is more about what cylinder that is stepped for an 1860 frame has small enough holes to be drilled for a 38 Special... or were the chambers sleeved also?

[Kodiak Bill]

Griff is absolutely correct. I put my eyeballs on it and it is NOT another piece of metal, it is beveled.

Edited December 16, 2024 by Kodiak Bill

[Kodiak Bill]

Remember my theory about it being harshly polished and all the letters re-done? Now, what do you think it is?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Funny...take a magnified image of the side...

 

It's a frankingun... Hope you didn't pay much for it. 

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

8 hours ago, Kodiak Bill said:

Remember my theory about it being harshly polished and all the letters re-done? Now, what do you think it is?

Fonts are not correct... Don't believe the frame was ever marked "COLT'S"...

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Yeah it was, quick google image search brought 'em up.  Here's one.

Where's the apostrophe?

 

Phantom

[Kodiak Bill]

This one?