WTC Drop Rifle

[Hawkeye Kid]

Shooter drops rifle on table, bounces and slides off table hitting ground butt first, barrel rests against table edge. Rifle never breaks 170.

Stage instructions were to make rifle safe.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

If already shot and empty - SDQ

If not shot and loaded - MDQ

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

29 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

If already shot and empty - SDQ

If not shot and loaded - MDQ

 

Hey!  Cut that out!  How dare you provide a clear and concise answer in the first response!  How the heck are we supposed to drag this out for 6 or 8 pages of argument if you do things like this.  Geese, some peoples kids...

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

No call.

Firearms may be staged/ restaged butt on the ground (vertical or semi vertically) in the absence of specific "make safe" instructions.

 

We do not penalize/ judge intention in this game; we penalize/ judge results.

 

The "result" of his action was a firearm in a safely restaged attitude and position.

 

Any other call brings in the subjectivity of "how fast did it slide?" - "was the table at fault?" - and a myriad of debate.

 

I have had guns "slide" after releasing them - I have "dropped" guns on tables and had them bounce.

 

The rule is not about the slide or the drop - but where the gun ends up.

 

Shooter got lucky.

Next shooter.

[Griff]

Creeker, only going by what was written in the OP,

44 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

Shooter drops rifle...

"Drops" indicates a loss of control.  One could say recklessly releases control of firearm and end up with the same result.  An unsafe act, regardless of how it ends up, shooter dropped the rifle.  There might be a difference in dropping the rifle onto the table from a couple of inches, and dropping it from chest high.   I can't ascertain that from what was written in the OP.  Once the butt hits the ground, it's over.  I've seen shooters toss their rifle and had it bounce, but recovered it before hitting the ground.  Whereby, I'll agree it's a "no call".  

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Creeker, I disagree. OP said shooter dropped the rifle on the table and it slid off, the butt landing on the ground. I do agree the shooter was lucky, but the call, in my view is an SDQ. Dropped rifle. If the shooter had restaged it butt on the ground, leaning against the table, then I can see a no call. You can tell if someone staged it like that or if it bounced off the table and fell.

[Leroy Luck]

SHB pg 16 & 22 

RO 1 pg 19 & 23

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

Creeker, only going by what was written in the OP,

"Drops" indicates a loss of control.  One could say recklessly releases control of firearm and end up with the same result.  An unsafe act, regardless of how it ends up, shooter dropped the rifle.  There might be a difference in dropping the rifle onto the table from a couple of inches, and dropping it from chest high.   I can't ascertain that from what was written in the OP.  Once the butt hits the ground, it's over.  I've seen shooters toss their rifle and had it bounce, but recovered it before hitting the ground.  Whereby, I'll agree it's a "no call".  

Define drop.

I drop my rifle from chest/ shoulder high regularly.

Is that a "loss of control"?

Should I be penalized every time?

 

Or does it matter where the gun ends up vs how it got there?

 

IF the "final" position is a agreed safe position AND the firearm did not break any other rules getting there - are we now judging the speed and method of staging vs. the result?

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

1 minute ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Define drop.

I drop my rifle from chest/ shoulder high regularly.

Is that a "loss of control"?

Should I be penalized every time?

 

Or does it matter where the gun ends up vs how it got there?

 

IF the "final" position is a agreed safe position AND the firearm did not break any other rules getting there - are we now judging the speed and method of staging vs. the result?

"I drop my rifle from chest/ shoulder high regularly"  I would consider that unsafe gun handling.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 minute ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

"I drop my rifle from chest/ shoulder high regularly"  I would consider that unsafe gun handling.

You are 100% entitled to your opinion.  Respectfully.

I am not debating that.

 

But until an action concludes in a result that can be identified as a rules violation without subjectivity...

Your consideration is solely an opinion.

 

And we do not score/ penalize by opinion.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Several years ago, I was watching Cripple Creek Kid shooting a stage.
When he put down his rifle, it almost seemed like he tried to push it into the table top.
When I asked him about it, he said he does that, because sometimes they bounce!
Later that day, Cheyenne Cullpepper shot the same stage, and quickly dropped his rifle on the table.

It bounced a couple of times, but not off the table.
Ever since that time, I have intentionally put my rifle down so that it would not bounce.

--Dawg 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

It doesn't matter from what  distance you drop, toss, throw your rifle towards the table and it bounces off as long as it doesn't break the 170?? 10, 15 feet from the table the shooter discards his rifle in the direction of the  table, begins drawing his revolver for the next string and he's good to go when his rifle bounces off the table but doesn't break the 170, because its a subjective call? This is supposed to demonstrate how important safety is in SASS?

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

49 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

You are 100% entitled to your opinion.  Respectfully.

I am not debating that.

 

But until an action concludes in a result that can be identified as a rules violation without subjectivity...

Your consideration is solely an opinion.

 

And we do not score/ penalize by opinion.

I believe that we do have rules violations that are based on opinion, Interpersonal conflicts, Belligerent attitude, and Unsportsmanlike conduct all require an opinion of the person that is in charge of the shoot.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I gotta go with Creeker's reasoning and the NO CALL verdict.

 

I will admit that the instructions of....."Make rifle safe" can be picked apart because the shooter didn't actually 'MAKE' the rifle

safe but rather it ended up in an acceptable 'safe position'.     

 

A high percentage of shooters constantly 'drop' their long guns, whether it be 2" or 8" from the table top when it leaves their

hand.   No one is ever penalized for those as a 'loss of control' situation.

 

Interesting topic.

 

..........Widder

 

[Griff]

Significant difference between being staged or restaged and falling uncontrolled.  Dropped on the table & then falling to the ground where only luck and good fortune lie between sweeping everyone on the stage and remaining pointed downrange is not safe conduct on the firing line.  Yes, there are times that good sense takes precedence over a rather liberal interpretation of the rules.

 

Somewhere in the deepest reaches of my memory, ISTR that any firearm landing in the ground was a DQ of some sort... wherein there was a lengthy and heated discussion of what constituted "the ground."  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

Shooter drops rifle on table, bounces and slides off table hitting ground butt first, barrel rests against table edge. Rifle never breaks 170.

Stage instructions were to make rifle safe.

 

2 hours ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

If already shot and empty - SDQ

If not shot and loaded - MDQ

 

Quote

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

SHB p.42