45-70 trapdoor load

[Dark Horse Charlie]

Howdy, can anyone help with a good safe smokeless load for a 45-70 1884 trapdoor? 

Thanks

Dark Horse Charlie

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Some suitable loads can be found online.  See Hodgdon's Reloading Data Center.  There are loads listed for 45-70 trapdoors.

 

 

Alliant also has Trapdoor loads (if you can find any of their powder).

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

 

[Cholla]

See Mike Venturino’s book dealing with Buffalo Guns. 

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

it all depends on what powder ya got 

 

  made some with Trail Boss , before it became unobtanium , run out of gas a bit too fast 

went to 5744 , now that seems to have gone the way of the dodo 

 

  CB 

[Hoss]

I assume this is a repro trapdoor and not an original? I have an original that I only shoot BP with. My H&R cadet model shoots well with a 305 cast bullet with 14.2 grains Unique. 

[Dark Horse Charlie]

5 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

it all depends on what powder ya got 

 

  made some with Trail Boss , before it became unobtanium , run out of gas a bit too fast 

went to 5744 , now that seems to have gone the way of the dodo 

 

  CB 

Thanks, I am just getting into reloading. I have a friend reloading for me now and we load my 45 colt with trail boss. He did suggest 5744 buy just looking for ideas to get started on my own. 

[Dark Horse Charlie]

2 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I assume this is a repro trapdoor and not an original? I have an original that I only shoot BP with. My H&R cadet model shoots well with a 305 cast bullet with 14.2 grains Unique. 

It is an original. The guy I got it from gave me a box he loaded with 12 gr of unique. I ran through thise and was looking to get a new load to try.

[Hoss]

9 minutes ago, Dark Horse Charlie said:

It is an original. The guy I got it from gave me a box he loaded with 12 gr of unique. I ran through thise and was looking to get a new load to try.

It’s your gun. But….. I would never run smokeless in a gun that wasn’t proofed for it. The pressure spike with smokeless is much faster than BP. 
a guy likened it to pulling a car out of a ditch. Put a chain on the bumper, ease into the load and pull it out verses put a chain on the bumper, leave 20’ of slack. Hit it hard with the pulling vehicle. You will likely snatch the bumper off the stuck car. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

11 minutes ago, Dark Horse Charlie said:

It is an original. The guy I got it from gave me a box he loaded with 12 gr of unique. I ran through thise and was looking to get a new load to try.

DON'T LOAD SMOKELESS POWDER in that rifle!

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Considered buying a bottle of APP from a local gun shop and loading with it.  There is a long list of merchants in NY that stock APP.  It won't rust your original and will make a satisfying cloud of white smoke when fired.

 

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has smokeless load for trapdoors if you choose to load with smokeless.  You are unlikely to see Unique for sale anytime soon based on recent info from Vista Outdoors.

[Still hand Bill]

I tried some unique loads, found it was a bit quick.  I did work up some lighter loads using 2400 and 5744.  20.5g of 2400 under a maker 500g Rex, gives 1050 ish.  

[Dark Horse Charlie]

38 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Considered buying a bottle of APP from a local gun shop and loading with it.  There is a long list of merchants in NY that stock APP.  It won't rust your original and will make a satisfying cloud of white smoke when fired.

 

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook has smokeless load for trapdoors if you choose to load with smokeless.  You are unlikely to see Unique for sale anytime soon based on recent info from Vista Outdoors.

Thanks. I'm not opposed to black ir aap but don't use it for anything else and wasa little hesitant due to the potential corrosion and making sure the filler is compact with the powder. 

 

I woukd also need to get at least a single stage setup.  

 

This is why I'm asking.

 

[Dr. Zook]

J.S. & Pat Wolf's book on the 45-70 cartridge.

.45-70 Springfield Book - Wolf's Western Traders (the4570book.com)

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

1 hour ago, Dark Horse Charlie said:

Thanks. I'm not opposed to black ir aap but don't use it for anything else and wasa little hesitant due to the potential corrosion and making sure the filler is compact with the powder. 

 

I woukd also need to get at least a single stage setup.  

 

This is why I'm asking.

 

APP is not a corrosive powder. What press are you using to load now? You are not supposed to compact APP.

[Dark Horse Charlie]

14 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

APP is not a corrosive powder. What press are you using to load now? You are not supposed to compact APP.

I do not have a press now. I have someone loading smokeless for me. Was thinking of starting to do my own but don't have the funds for the full progressive set up right now. 

Thought starting on the low volume count big calibers would be easier.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

I started reloading many years ago with an RCBS Rock Chucker with rifle rounds and currently load most rounds on a Dillion 550, both pistol and rifle calibers.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

I have been reloading for a bit over 50 years , I still run a single stage press , for everything 

 

 I was loading for 6 shooters at one time , took a bit of time , but , every round sounded the same as the 10 before and 10 after 

 

 I have had progressive presses , just do NOT like them , nor do I trust em all that well 

 

  Chickasaw Bill 

[Lead Monger]

I would never load smokeless powders into an original Trapdoor rifle. I have seen more than one cracked receiver. My favorite plinking load for my 1888 Trapdoor rifle is the Lee 405 hollow base bullet lubed with SPG over 65 grains of GOEX FF with a Fed 215 primer in Starline brass. 

[Caladisi kid]

J.S. & Pat Wolf's book on the 45-70 cartridge.

.45-70 Springfield Book - Wolf's Western Traders (the4570book.com)

 

THIS  ^^^^^ and slug your bore.  Black powder, 1.5-2, soft cast lead (1-20) with proper dia., lube with BP lube, any good 45-70 case, magnum large pistol primer.  Have Fun!!

[Dark Horse Charlie]

Thanks for all the info. Looks like general consensus is not to go any smokeless. Is there any benefit to APP or other subs over black powder? Besides less corrosion possibilities.  Do subs need filler? Lube? 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Black Powder needs to have bullets lubed with BP compatible lube and APP

bullets can be lubed with smokeless lube. BP or APP should be fill the case BP with some compression and APP with no compression. Filler can be used with both if you want a reduced load.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

1 hour ago, Dark Horse Charlie said:

Thanks for all the info. Looks like general consensus is not to go any smokeless. Is there any benefit to APP or other subs over black powder? Besides less corrosion possibilities.  Do subs need filler? Lube? 

Another advantage of the BP subs over real BP is availability.  Many gun shops stock and sell the subs but cannot or will not deal with black powder.  (I will avoid a lengthy explanation why.)  You can use a filler with APP if you need to reduce the powder charge.  No lube is needed.  If you want real black powder you may have to order it and pay shipping and HAZMAT charges.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

20 hours ago, Dark Horse Charlie said:

I do not have a press now. I have someone loading smokeless for me. Was thinking of starting to do my own but don't have the funds for the full progressive set up right now. 

Thought starting on the low volume count big calibers would be easier.

My recommendation for a single stage press is a beefy model with lots of compound leverage for those large rifle cases you plan to resize.  I would also try to buy a model that directs spent primers through the ram to a container below.  That will prevent you from picking up spent primers that might otherwise fall on your reloading room floor.

 

A single stage press is handy even when you have a progressive press.  There are many odd jobs that are best done on the single stage press.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Dark Horse, there are PLENTY of smokeless trapdoor level loads available. Hodgdon Powder, Accurate Powder, and all powder manufacturers list them. 

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

18 hours ago, Caladisi kid said:

J.S. & Pat Wolf's book on the 45-70 cartridge.

.45-70 Springfield Book - Wolf's Western Traders (the4570book.com)

 

THIS  ^^^^^ and slug your bore.  Black powder, 1.5-2, soft cast lead (1-20) with proper dia., lube with BP lube, any good 45-70 case, magnum large pistol primer.  Have Fun!!

It’s very hard to come up with the bore on a 3 land rifling. The good news, black powder and 25:1 lead tin bullet, 405 gr, it will slug up to the bore.

 

Uriah

[Caladisi kid]

Uriah, I had found out that my 1884 trapdoor took .459 dia. 20-1 bullets quite well. It is always a hoot when I would pull out the 1884 at the long range target area and hit the gong at 600 yds. others at first thought no way but then others wanted to try it.  2.5-3 seconds from ignition to when you could hear the hit. Happy shooting!