July Smith Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 Sorry for the copy paste of a previous question, but the previous thread has been archived and I never really got an answer. I have a 36cal percussion Uberti 1862 with a 6.5" barrel. I would like to use this gun for SASS pocket pistol side matches. From the most current rule book. "POCKET PISTOLS AND DERRINGERS Pocket pistols and Derringers are popular for use in side matches and are occasionally introduced as an additional firearm in main match stages. - A pocket pistol is a small frame, fixed sight, pre-1900 design revolver having a barrel length of four inches or less. Pocket pistols must be .31 caliber or larger. Model “P” Colts and clones and revolvers with swing out cylinders are specifically not allowed regardless of caliber, frame size, or barrel length. Colt Model 1877 DA revolvers are LEGAL for use as pocket pistols. Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers. - A Derringer is defined as an external hammer, fixed sight, breech loading or percussion ignition, small frame pre-1900 design firearm having one to four barrels up to three and one-half inches long. Derringers must be .22 caliber or larger. The Remington style over/under barrel configuration and the Sharps fourbarreled Pepperbox are typical SASS legal Derringers - .22 Magnum ammunition is not allowed." Can I simply trim the barrel of my current Uberti 1862 to 4" or less and have a SASS legal pocket pistol? The part of the rule book that confuses me a little is, "pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers." If I am reading that correctly I cannot make a pocket gun into a main match gun, but it doesn't seem to prohibit me from taking a match gun and converting it into a pocket gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 Small frame is pretty subjective I believe that is a 5 shot cylinder? Is there a notch to rest the hammer between cylinders? If it has a notch would be main-match legal and therefor not pocket pistol side match legal. (Regardless of barrel length) if no notch I would think good to go. I don’t see a cap & ball gun being very competitive in pocket pistol. You would likely be better served to find a S&W pocket pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 Hi July Smith, We're still waiting to hear from Palewolf and the ROC. I'll send him a reminder. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogleg Hunter Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 For what it's worth I use a pair to shoot Frontiersman. There is a notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 18 minutes ago, Hogleg Hunter said: For what it's worth I use a pair to shoot Frontiersman. There is a notch. Are you shooting Piettas or Ubertis? I think the Piettas are the same size as their '51 frame, but the Ubertis are smaller frame. I've always thought that a single-action gun with a good action job could be slip-hammered at least as fast as firing a double-action gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 For me, DA Pocket Pistols are generally faster and for use in "speed" PP matches. SA Pocket Pistols are more accurate, and therefore get used in "accuracy" PP matches. Unless I just use my Lightning for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: For me, DA Pocket Pistols are generally faster and for use in "speed" PP matches. SA Pocket Pistols are more accurate, and therefore get used in "accuracy" PP matches. Unless I just use my Lightning for both. I’ve not ever seen a “accuracy” pocket pistol match. Would be interesting! my Lightning has a 4.25” barrel. Not PP legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 12 minutes ago, Hoss said: I’ve not ever seen a “accuracy” pocket pistol match. Would be interesting! my Lightning has a 4.25” barrel. Not PP legal This years Western Frontiersman Territorial had an PP side match with four 6" paper plates as targets spaced from 2' to 6' in distance. It could be shot fast, but you need to look at the sights. Since it was a Frontiersman match, only cap and ball PP's were allowed. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 20 minutes ago, Hoss said: I’ve not ever seen a “accuracy” pocket pistol match. Would be interesting! my Lightning has a 4.25” barrel. Not PP legal Usually as I have seen them, an accuracy PP match has a single sheet of paper target with 4 bullseyes on it. You take one shot at each bullseye from a "pocket pistol" distance. I find them to be fun. Speed PP matches as I have seen ae usually 2 large steel targets, four shots back and forth as quick as possible, again at pocket pistol distance. My Pocket Lightning... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggle Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 Beautiful little gun! I have gone over to Remington and Remington look alikes such as the Ruger Old Army. Top strap and all that, it is a good design. But you are putting ideas in my head about getting one of those Uberti Colts. I did have a Navy Colt years ago and it was a pretty nice little gun. A .36 round ball and 20 grains of powder, I wouldn't want to get hit with that little gun. I think that is the gun that Josey Wales used to shoot the two Missouri River scum who were trying to arrest him. They failed to search him and he shot them dead. And his buddy wanted to bury them and Josey said "To hell with them fellers. Leave 'em lay. Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 Would be nice to get an “official” answer to this question I’m 99% would not be legal as it is legal for main match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 From last year. Seems to me to be saying that the Uberti '62 can be a main match gun as long as the barrel is longer than 4", or a pocket pistol if 4" or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: From last year. Seems to me to be saying that the Uberti '62 can be a main match gun as long as the barrel is longer than 4", or a pocket pistol if 4" or less. That’s not quite the way I read that. But I could be wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 Not meaning be contrary (yes I am). The term "Small Frame" is not at all subjective. The "Small Frame" guns are represented by the 1849 "Wells Fargo," 1849 "Baby Dragoon" and 1848 Navy which all have 4" barrels. Having a "notch" between chambers to rest the hammer has nothing to do with being a "Main Match" gun. All Colt Pattern Percussion guns have "pins" on which to rest the hammer between chambers as does the Uberti '62 Pocket Police. "Large" frame began with the 1851. The 1861 and the 1860 started life being built on the 1851 frame. As an aside, the Pietta 1862 is also built on the 1851 frame. While the Uberti built, Colt Pattern 1862 follows the Colt moniker of "Pocket Police," it does NOT fit the SASS definition of "Pocket Pistol" as the shortest barrel is over length. Now, whether or not taking a hacksaw to the barrel to render it under 4" and thus technically a "pocket pistol" is kinda "grey." Fortunately, I got no dog inna fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
July Smith Posted August 25, 2022 Author Share Posted August 25, 2022 47 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Now, whether or not taking a hacksaw to the barrel to render it under 4" and thus technically a "pocket pistol" is kinda "grey." Fortunately, I got no dog inna fight. Now my turn to be contrary. If Uberti produced an 1862 with a 4" or less barrel everything about the 1862 would be SASS pocket legal. No grey area there. I'm willing to bet Colt back in the day produced a number of 62s with 4" or less barrels, so there are a number of originals that are SASS pocket legal. The rules state, "pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers." Meaning I cannot take a pocket pistol such as a S&W or H&R top break, disable the double action function and now use it as a SASS legal main match gun even though it is now technically a single action gun. The wording, "may not be used as or converted to main match revolvers," would imply a match gun cannot be made into a pocket gun, but that's not what it actually says. It simply states a pocket gun cannot be converted to a main match gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, July Smith said: I'm willing to bet Colt back in the day produced a number of 62s with 4" or less barrels, so there are a number of originals that are SASS pocket legal. Pocket Conversions under 4" were limited to the 1849...I think they made a 62 Pocket Conversion w/o Ejector that was sub 4". Lotta work for what? I'm at a little loss here. If you want to compete in PP, why not just get a nice Top Break and be done with it? Style Points are useless. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
July Smith Posted August 25, 2022 Author Share Posted August 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Lotta work for what? I'm at a little loss here. If you want to compete in PP, why not just get a nice Top Break and be done with it? Style Points are useless. Trimming a barrel? A lot of work? I already have a 62, I don't have a top break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, July Smith said: Trimming a barrel? A lot of work? I already have a 62, I don't have a top break. Well...buying a good Top Break is a lot easier than trimming a barrel...and posting questions...and dealing with questions at matches...so yeah. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
July Smith Posted August 25, 2022 Author Share Posted August 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Well...buying a good Top Break is a lot easier than trimming a barrel...and posting questions...and dealing with questions at matches...so yeah. Phantom How about this... If I find a decent top break, BUT it happens to have a 6" barrel can I trim it back and have a SASS legal pocket pistol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, July Smith said: How about this... If I find a decent top break, BUT it happens to have a 6" barrel can I trim it back and have a SASS legal pocket pistol? Sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 As long as this is an opinion thread, and the ROC hasn't spoken, here's my opinion: The 1862 Uberti is a main match revolver. With a shorter barrel it's still a main match revolver with a shorter barrel. It is not a small frame like the 1849 Baby Dragoon or the 1863 Remington with a .32 Conv. Cylinder Just like the Uberti Stallion with a short barrel wouldn't be a pocket pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
July Smith Posted August 25, 2022 Author Share Posted August 25, 2022 29 minutes ago, McCandless said: It is not a small frame like the 1849 Baby Dragoon Yes, the Uberti/Colt 1862 is the same frame as the 1849. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 27 minutes ago, July Smith said: Yes, the Uberti/Colt 1862 is the same frame as the 1849. Fair enough. Uberti says the 1862 is built stronger than the 1849, but nevertheless, that means with a .32 S&W Conversion Cylinder, the 1849 could be a main match gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted August 25, 2022 Share Posted August 25, 2022 1 hour ago, July Smith said: How about this... If I find a decent top break, BUT it happens to have a 6" barrel can I trim it back and have a SASS legal pocket pistol? I have an Iver johnson pocket pistol that somebody lopped off the barrel. It’s about 1.5 now. so yes I think you could shorten the barrel on an otherwise legal pocket pistol. like Pantom (and this is the 2nd time this year I’ve agreed with him!) you would be much better off finding a S&W or an Iver Johnson. But, I know you like capguns!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 Ah yes. There is the Rub. The OP already has the 1862 PP. But it doesn't meed the SASS definition of PP, so why can't we massage the SASS requirement to allow the ONE gun the OP owns to make "it" legal. Of course, the simple answer is to acquire a nice Uberti built Cap Gun that meets the SASS definition. That takes a little money. And they appear to be "Out of Stock" and the OP is unwilling to accept "NO." Whether or not SASS would accept the "hacksaw" treatment and allow the '62 to "become" a PP is at this point, Unknown. At this point, the 1862, regardless of Colt and Uberti nomenclature is NOT a legal SASS Pocket Pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 12 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: At this point, the 1862, regardless of Colt and Uberti nomenclature is NOT a legal SASS Pocket Pistol. Actually it has not been determined as to whether the 62' is SASS legal, we've been waiting to hear from the ROC. By the way you can buy 3.5" barrels for the 62' from Uberti/Taylors. I don't understand the negativity on this post regarding the Colt/Uberti 1862', it is the exact frame size as the Baby Dragoon and 1849 and the Wells Fargo, the cylinder is a slightly larger diameter due to it being a .36 caliber and the frame is recessed to hold the .36 caliber cylinder, instead of the .31 caliber. Otherwise the guns are the same. Plus it's historically accurate and dates to the time period. My question is more of what difference does it make, that it can be shot as a main match revolver? How is that a advantage? If folks see it as an advantage using the same pistol in the PP side match, as the shooter use's in the main match. My argument is, by using an 1849' in the PP side match, the main match 1862 shooter is now "legal" to shoot the PP side match, but it's still the same gun, same size, same feel. So why the rule in regards to a PP can not be converted to a main match revolver? Why don't we wait and see what the ROC has to say? Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 Which is which? The bottom picture is an 1862' frame with a 49' barrel and cylinder. Yes the gun operates, and would shoot. Thanks, Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jack Black Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 I like the small top-breaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red River Rudy, SASS #8490 LIFE Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 I agree with Phantom and Hoss!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogleg Hunter Posted November 6, 2022 Share Posted November 6, 2022 On 8/22/2022 at 7:16 PM, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: Are you shooting Piettas or Ubertis? I think the Piettas are the same size as their '51 frame, but the Ubertis are smaller frame. I shoot Ubertis. The Piettas are actually a 6 shot revolver built on the 1851 Navy frame. I have a pair of these also and they are great pistols. They are just not as small as the Ubertis. As I get older that long thumb reach is hard on my thumb joint which was my reason for wanting something built on a .31 frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted November 6, 2022 Share Posted November 6, 2022 If the longer barrel 62's are main match legal, then the shorter barrel ones would be main match legal as well. I base this assumption on the following. The Colt SAA is main match legal. So is the short barrel Sheriff's model. The Sheriff's model is NOT legal for a pocket pistol even though the barrel is short enough, it's not a small frame. And, it's specifically said to not be legal for use as a pocket. Based on all that data, I'd say a short barrel 62 is probably not legal for use as a pocket pistol. That's all an assumption on my part. But I think there is some logic to it. Of course, the name of the pistol is the 1862 Pocket. So that means that... Uhm... I don't know. We may very well have found a pistol that can be used as both. Is... A puzzlement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 So: Exactly "when" did logic enter into SASS rules?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: So: Exactly "when" did logic enter into SASS rules?? About five minutes before never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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