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Problem with a Norinco 97 shotgun


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I cannot get this gun to reliably take a shell from the magazine and put it in the chamber when I cycle the gun.  It will only take a shell out of the magazine about 30% of the time and the last shell in the magazine will almost never come out.  Does anyone know what could be wrong with it and how to fix it?

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Posted (edited)

I have a CB model and had that issue if only one in the mag. The spring was cut too short. I took the spring out of my other one and it works fine and still holds six. YMMV

Mine would not eject either without great force and taking literally a chunk out of the hull.

Kinda amazed at how it was signed by it's creater so to speak, but never function tested.:mellow:

 

 

Edited by Eyesa Horg
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Posted (edited)

The uncompressed mag spring needs to be at least 3" longer than the mag tube.   You can use a Remington 870 pump shotgun mag spring and trim to the length you need.

 

Mag tube needs to be spotless and very lightly oiled, same with the mag follower.   A lube that dries to touch like Eezox or Boeshield T9 is what you need for lubricant in the tube.

 

Check that both shell stops are pivoting far enough to let the rim of the hull emerge from the magazine as the action opens.   These get dirty and quit opening fully.   DO NOT LOSE the small screws that hold them in.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Often times the cartridge stops do not hold the shell back evenly.  One side is longer and cocks the shell over to the other cartridge stop, creating feeding issues.  Make sure both cartridge stops are working together 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

The uncompressed mag spring needs to be at least 3" longer than the mag tube.   You can use a Remington 870 pump shotgun mag spring and trim to the length you need.

 

Mag tube needs to be spotless and very lightly oiled, same with the mag follower.   A lube that dries to touch like Eezox or Boeshield T9 is what you need for lubricant in the tube.

 

Check that both shell stops are pivoting far enough to let the rim of the hull emerge from the magazine as the action opens.   These get dirty and quit opening fully.   DO NOT LOOSE the small screws that hold them in.

 

good luck, GJ

This sound logical to me that a tired spring my be the problem because as the rounds in the magazine go down they are less likely to come out of the magazine. This could correlate to the reduced spring tension on the shells as the quantity decreases.   I found a new spring for $10 and will give it a try.  The rest of the gun is pretty nice. 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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I put the new spring in the magazine and while I was doing that I decide to disassemble the receiver area and give it a good cleaning.  I also cleaned the magazine tube.  It was in really good condition. No rust or gunk in it.  I reassembled the gun and the new spring helped but did not cure the problem.  It seams to work better with AA hulls but I still have a very high failure rate trying to get the shell to come out of the magazine so they can be loaded into the chamber.  I am now in search of a good gunsmith that is familiar with the Norinco 1897 guns to fix the problem.  On the plus side the repair I did to the stock seams to be holding up well.

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2 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

I am now in search of a good gunsmith that is familiar with the Norinco 1897 guns to fix the problem. 

Outlaw Gambler in Wisconsin

 

The Dusty Bunch Shop in Casa Grande, AZ

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I sent it to the Cowboy Shop for them to put some more magic into it and will let you know the outcome when I get it back.

I got a Rock Island 1911 and it works well with my reloads except that the Promags I got for it will not keep the slide back on the last fired round.  The mag I got with the gun from Rock Island works perfect.  The Promags are on there way back to the company for them to evaluate.

My converted 1873 in 45acp is working great and I have all the leather I need.  My Dillon that I load the 45's on can be a little difficult but the bullets come off the press without any defects.

I have enough powder, primers and bullets to last me a wile so I guess I will soon be able to shoot Wild Bunch if I can get the shotgun to work reliably.

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9 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

works well with my reloads except that the Promags I got for it will not keep the slide back

 

Best quality magazines are a VERY wise investment if you are going to shoot a 1911, especially in a hard usage like WB.   Most competitors eventually move on up to Tripp magazines.  Order direct from the manufacturer.

https://www.trippresearch.com/store/index.html

 

good luck, GJ

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Mec-gar makes a 7 round 1911 mag that works flawlessly. Don't be afraid to grab them.

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I've worked on a Chinese '97 that had issues from new, and one of the issues was as you described. I have to ask, is this a condition that was always there or one that began recently. It isn't unusual for Chinese 97s to have flaws/issues out of the box. 

 

How the '97 feeds is a bit convoluted IMHO. The carrier activates the magazine releases. With the magazine freshly filled, operating the pump lowers the carrier which activates both cartridge stops as it passes the opening to the tube. The stops and the carrier work together to control the feeding of the shell. The timing is a function of the stops and the front of the carrier. On mine the carrier was pushing the shell back into the magazine and the stops would close on the shell and it would not pop into the action. The shell just stayed in the tube. And like yours, some brands would sort of work, others would never work. 

 

Your problem may be different, but the shape/slope of the carrier nose on mine was the issue. Since reworking I have had no issues. 

 

The Norinco 1897 Shotgun.pdf

 

I've posted the write up before, but to save you searching I've attached it again. 

 

BB

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2 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

I've worked on a Chinese '97 that had issues from new, and one of the issues was as you described. I have to ask, is this a condition that was always there or one that began recently. It isn't unusual for Chinese 97s to have flaws/issues out of the box. 

I purchased this gun used about 3 weeks ago and I could never get it to work correctly.  After exhausting all other avenues I have sent it to The Cowboy Shop in the hope that Cody can put some more magic in it so it will function as designed.

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8 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

I purchased this gun used about 3 weeks ago and I could never get it to work correctly.  After exhausting all other avenues I have sent it to The Cowboy Shop in the hope that Cody can put some more magic in it so it will function as designed.

If the person you bought it from used it for CAS, there's a possibility that they never loaded the tube and had no idea.  I recall at the first Whoopin'Ass match in '99, one stage allowed stoking so Aimless Annie decided to stoke her '97 (original) for the first time ever on that stage.  Needless to say, it would not feed from the tube!

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12 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

If the person you bought it from used it for CAS, there's a possibility that they never loaded the tube and had no idea.  I recall at the first Whoopin'Ass match in '99, one stage allowed stoking so Aimless Annie decided to stoke her '97 (original) for the first time ever on that stage.  Needless to say, it would not feed from the tube!

That is a good possibility but once they were informed of the problem, one would think that they would want to correct the problem.

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What I'm about to say is nearly sacrilege,  but as much as I love my Coyote Cap 93/97, my unaltered Winchester model 12 is MUCH smoother and easier to operate.

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16 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

What I'm about to say is nearly sacrilege,  but as much as I love my Coyote Cap 93/97, my unaltered Winchester model 12 is MUCH smoother and easier to operate.

Funny you should say that, I am already looking into the possibility of maybe getting a Model 12

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When setting up a shotgun for WB, pay attention to the receiver edges where you slide the shells into the magazine.  Those edges will filet your fingers!

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24 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Model 12 is not SASS legal 

I found this on the WB site.

SHOTGUN REQUIREMENTS The Winchester model 1897 and model 12 pump in 12 gauge, civilian or military style are allowed. The IAC ‘93/’97 reproduction Winchester is also approved. This shotgun may be identified by the numbers ‘93/’97 on the left side of the barrel and the words IAC Billerica, MA on the right side of the barrel. Original Winchester 1893 shotguns were declared unsafe by the manufacturer and are NOT legal for use in Wild Bunch Action Shooting™ matches. Fully accurate reproductions are allowed.

Looks OK to me or am I reading it wrong?  I am new to WB so I do not know everything I need to know yet.

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1 minute ago, Nickel City Dude said:

...

Looks OK to me or am I reading it wrong?  I am new to WB so I do not know everything I need to know yet.

 

WBAS is NOT "SASS with a 1911".
Different game, different rules.

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20 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

I found this on the WB site.

SHOTGUN REQUIREMENTS The Winchester model 1897 and model 12 pump in 12 gauge, civilian or military style are allowed. The IAC ‘93/’97 reproduction Winchester is also approved. This shotgun may be identified by the numbers ‘93/’97 on the left side of the barrel and the words IAC Billerica, MA on the right side of the barrel. Original Winchester 1893 shotguns were declared unsafe by the manufacturer and are NOT legal for use in Wild Bunch Action Shooting™ matches. Fully accurate reproductions are allowed.

Looks OK to me or am I reading it wrong?  I am new to WB so I do not know everything I need to know yet.

Model 12 is WB legal....

Not for SASS....

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Thanks for the info.  I probably did not make it clear enough in my previous posts that I was gearing up for WB, which is why I was considering the Model 12.

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21 hours ago, Nickel City Dude said:

Thanks for the info.  I probably did not make it clear enough in my previous posts that I was gearing up for WB, which is why I was considering the Model 12.

 

I also wander over to the darker side for the occasional WB shoot. Out club is small so we have a modified format, Cowboy scenarios with the option to use a 40 plus caliber lever and a 1911, shotgun rule same as cowboy. I did buy a Model 12 in anticipation for WB scenarios, it does hold 6 without any magazine tube modifications. 

 

I will add one comment, the Model 12 has it's quirks, especially when you run it fast. The Model 12 does not usually come with a cartridge guide, you'll need to tilt the gun as you pump, just a slight amount will be enough. Once your muscle memory kicks in, it'll be a natural movement. All 97's came with the guide. Decent Model 12s are still around, but they are outnumbered by the beat up ones. 

 

1329202584_Model12forend.thumb.jpg.f529877fc1767393b414d4e0dfd628ba.jpg 

 

I had to buy an old style forend stock to make it look less modern. There was several versions of that as well. 

 

BB

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Posted (edited)

I got my 1897 Shotgun back from the Cowboy Shop yesterday and Cody got it running sweet.  i took it to the club to try it out and shot a round of Trap with it.  I only got a 15 but what can one expect from a short barreled trench gun?   I have been unable to get it to malfunction since I got it back.  The shells always exit the magazine and chamber smoothly.  He told me that he had to heat up the cartridge stops and bend them a little.  I don’t’ know how much heat was necessary or how much bend or in which direction but he certainly appears to know.  I have been working on Civil War musket & carbine stocks for over 30 years so the repair I did on the stock should last for decades.  160+ year old stocks can be tricky to work on so applying the same techniques to new wood should yield the same results.  I am all ready for Wild Bunch.  I have my 1911 pistol, all my leather and 5 working magazines, an 1873 in 45acp, an 1897 pump shotgun and a bunch of ammo. Just point me in the right direction and I will take it from there.

Edited by Nickel City Dude
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nickel City Dude said:

I have my 1911 pistol, all my leather and 5 working magazines,

You will likely need 10 or 12 working 1911 magazines.  They can get stepped on, the base plate bent, the lips tweaked, and the interior filled with dust and sand during a match.  Yeah, you may take along some spray cleaner and lube,  but nothing is easier and more reliable during the match than to turn to a known good, clean, replacement magazine when a disaster happens.

 

Quote

He told me that he had to heat up the (shotgun) cartridge stops and bend them a little.

 

Yeah, that almost certainly meant that the bearing surfaces of the stops which press against the carrier sides to open and allow next cartridge to feed out of magazine were worn from 60 or a hundred years of use.   So, rather than welding on replacement metal, bending the stops to open "earlier and more completely" is also a great way to fix the problem for a long time to come.  Glad you found a smith skilled at "getting 'er done."  Cody is certainly one of our best smiths!

 

good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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31 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

You will likely need 10 or 12 working 1911 magazines.  They can get stepped on, the base plate bent, the lips tweaked, and the interior filled with dust and sand during a match.  Yeah, you may take along some spray cleaner and lube,  but nothing is easier and more reliable during the match than to turn to a known good, clean, replacement magazine when a disaster happens.

 

I bought 10 ProMags from an on line store.  They sorta worked but would not keep the 1911 slide back on the last shot.  The profile on the mag follower was different then the mag that came with the gun.  I have 10 Promag magazines that I got a wile back for my Glock and they work great and figured the ones they sell for a 1911 would work also.   I talked to a teck. at Promag and they asked me to send the 1911 mags to them for evaluation.  They had them for about 5 days and when I didn't hear from them I called and they told me that they were under guarantee and will replace them with ones that will work in my gun.  Unfortunately they also told me that they did not have any in stock at this time but would send the replacement when they were back in stock.  They could not give me a time factor so I purchased 4 Sig Sauer mags that are working in my gun and am waiting for the replacements.   I had not considered damage to magazines at a shoot, so thanks for the warning.  I also like to have a lot of magazines pre-loaded so when I go to the range I am not paying range time to reload magazines. 

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Ed Brown makes good magazines.  They have an exchange program where you send them up to 20 magazines and purchase that many of theirs for $10 each.  I sent 5 crappy GI mags I had and got 5 of theirs.  https://www.edbrown.com/magexchange/

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Mec-Gar makes a 7 rounder for 1911s that are excellent too.

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Funny thing, I just got a message from UPS that Promag has sent me a package.  They must have gotten some more stock of the magazines that will work in my gun.  Should be here around Wednesday.

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On 5/30/2022 at 9:14 PM, Nickel City Dude said:

Thanks for the info.  I probably did not make it clear enough in my previous posts that I was gearing up for WB, which is why I was considering the Model 12.

 

There is a wealth of information about Magazines, Model 12s, setting up '97s for WB over here on the SASS Wild Bunch Forum

Come on over and set a spell!

https://wildbunch.sassnet.com/  

 

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