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Procedures


Cutthroat Cody
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I've always wondered why P's are written into a stage, and then the timer "warns" shooters about them as they shoot the stage. I've seen some shoots where a timer warns shooters about the P and then forget to tell a shooter or two. That really "chaps my hide" as they say. Now if a shooter requests to be reminded before the beep, I'm ok with that but if you tell one shooter, you need to tell every shooter.

 

As a follow up here, if a shooter forgets to take a stage prop ( a money bag ) from station to station for instance. My thought here is that you rob a shooter at a chance to earn a P (being sarcastic). 

 

 

 

Edited by Cutthroat Cody
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What exactly do you mean by PROCEDURALS being "written into a stage"?

 

Suggested reading: SHB p.18, RO1 p.9, RO2 p.7

REF also: THIS THREAD

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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Rarely are "P's" written into a stage deliberately (it has happened; but those clubs and match directors dont usually last long).

 

A TO or Posse Marshal warning about a potential P is doing so because they recognize the potential of a movement, sequence or some odd circumstance which might throw someone off.

 

But any such observation is a COURTESY and is not required nor should it be expected to be repeated to every shooter.

 

And because the spectrum of items that shooters consider P traps is so varied - it would be impossible to warn every shooter about every potential movement, sequence or circumstance that "could" create a P.

 

A different sequence pistol to rifle is considered by some a P trap.

 

Shotgun having an assigned target order is considered by some a P trap.

 

Split pistols, split shotgun are considered by some a P trap.

 

Requiring a sequence to be shot right to left is considered by some to be a P trap.

 

The TO is NOT required to bring these to anyones attention or spoonfeed anyone the stage instruction.  If they are kind enough to catch something and bring it to your attention - say thank you.

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This past weekend I shot a stage with a P-Trap depending on your prospective. 6 shotgun targets, and you had to shoot left, right, left, right, left. right.  The stage stated your target must fall before engaging the next target.  We had a shooter shoot at #5 target and missed but had moved on to # 6. and knock it down. He went back and shot number 5 and was awarded a P. It made for a lively discussion. Since a miss can not cause a P, it was stated he should not get the P. However since the stage instructions stated the target must fall before engaging the target, it was stated he earned 2 P's and a miss. One for shooting the targets out of order (due to the order they fell down) and one for engaging the next target before the previous target fell down and  a miss for not making up the target at the proper time.. However, since you can only earn 1 P per stage, he was only given 1 P. The miss was negated as he made it up at the wrong time, but he did knock it down with the second shot. (I was spotting for this shooter and we had to read the instructions for the stage again just to make sure we made the right call)

 

 The problem was not everybody understood the stage  as the left/right was clear but waiting to make sure it was down before moving on may have gotten more than 1 shooter. ( I was not spotting when I saw something similar happen and i don't know what they did).

 

I shot the stage first and made sure my targets all went down in order before shooting the next target ( added some time to my stage) and it was brought up in the reading of the stage that the targets were to be made up before moving to the next target. It was a fun shoot and you have to think and pay attention to the stages (they are always a bit of a challenge).

 

The stage writer for the shoot throws these things in every now and then to make you think, but when they had their annual shoot the stages were all very straight forward and fun. Anyhow , I like a challenge every now and then and I shot a clean match ( 1st one this year).

 

 

Edited by Maddog McCoy SASS #5672
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8 hours ago, Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 said:

This past weekend I shot a stage with a P-Trap depending on your prospective. 6 shotgun targets, and you had to shoot left, right, left, right, left. right.  The stage stated your target must fall before engaging the next target.  We had a shooter shoot at #5 target and missed but had moved on to # 6. and knock it down. He went back and shot number 5 and was awarded a P. It made for a lively discussion. Since a miss can not cause a P, it was stated he should not get the P. However since the stage instructions stated the target must fall before engaging the target, it was stated he earned 2 P's and a miss. One for shooting the targets out of order (due to the order they fell down) and one for engaging the next target before the previous target fell down and  a miss for not making up the target at the proper time.. However, since you can only earn 1 P per stage, he was only given 1 P. The miss was negated as he made it up at the wrong time, but he did knock it down with the second shot. (I was spotting for this shooter and we had to read the instructions for the stage again just to make sure we made the right call)

 

 The problem was not everybody understood the stage  as the left/right was clear but waiting to make sure it was down before moving on may have gotten more than 1 shooter. ( I was not spotting when I saw something similar happen and i don't know what they did).

 

I shot the stage first and made sure my targets all went down in order before shooting the next target ( added some time to my stage) and it was brought up in the reading of the stage that the targets were to be made up before moving to the next target. It was a fun shoot and you have to think and pay attention to the stages (they are always a bit of a challenge).

 

The stage writer for the shoot throws these things in every now and then to make you think, but when they had their annual shoot the stages were all very straight forward and fun. Anyhow , I like a challenge every now and then and I shot a clean match ( 1st one this year).

 

 

Your club sir, has a questionable stage writer.

Requiring shooters to wait for targets to fall is a DELIBERATE attempt to create penalties and insert speed limits.

 

I hate when the match director feels they need to write a match filled with inane sweep sequences or silly conditions to "challenge" the shooter.

 

These match directors are not proponents for their shooters - but instead are adversarial.  Match Director versus shooter.

If a shooter shoots fast or clean - the match director isnt celebrating with the shooter - they are insulted and plotting their revenge.

 

If your match director has ever bragged about no one ever shoots their match clean - or stated how a stage needs to be harder next time - or claimed that many nameless, faceless shooters love their stages (but you've never met anyone who does)

 

You need a different match director.

 

 

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Well, I have been in this game a long time. If it was up to me, we would be shooting off on my mechanical horse and mechanical stagecoach a couple times a year.  This was not my club, but I try and shoot there a couple times a year and I enjoy the stages they have. Usually it is gunfighter friendly, a couple make you think stages, a couple stand and deliver stages, and one challenging stage. The shoot had over 40 shooters and 12 clean shooters.

 

On the monthlies, there is something for everybody, big matches are straight stages or stages borrowed from large shoots.  This years annual had close to 200 shooters. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 said:

<snip> The stage stated your target must fall before engaging the next target.  <snip>

 

 

 

Dumbest stage instruction ever.  Way to penalize a SxS shooter.  A '97 shooter has time during the reload to check the target.  A fast SxS shooter with splits of 0.2 or less doesn't have that.  Speed bump indeed.  Last match I went to with an instruction like this was the last match I went to at that range (not going to name names). 

 

Another one that gets me are odd numbers of shotgun targets.  Another way to penalize a SxS shooter.  That ran me off another match.

 

There are no real "P" traps.  Stages with complicated sequences, or different sequences for each gun just require a lot more prep by the shooter to get it into the head.  Stages like this penalize the middle and bottom of the pack shooter much more than the top shooters at a club.  Same with small/far targets.  Really good shooters will take the time to see what's needed to hit the target, and they'll do it much faster than the middle/bottom of the pack shooter.  This is why matches like Bordertown are so popular.  Big and close is what actually levels the playing field, though some find that really boring.

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17 hours ago, Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 said:

The stage stated your target must fall before engaging the next target.

 

8 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Dumbest stage instruction ever. 

 

Thanks, Doc.  Couldn't have said it better.

 

I would bet heavily that the instruction writer was not a black powder shooter...

 

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I don't understand how he got a miss on shotgun. The P yes for shooting out of order. But I didn't think shotgun counted as miss. Cause you shoot til down...:huh:

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That's how I would understand the knockdown before shooting next target. They are just saying knock it down . So if it takes 2 to kd 1 . You just have to make up before u move on.  

 And I do understand what u are saying. If u are used to just knock them down (SG) then on last stage of day it's outside outside inside inside. The TO will yell outside for some ppl. And another  TO  may not. So it isnt the same for all. I struggle with how much I should help shooters. 

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13 minutes ago, Black RZR said:

I don't understand how he got a miss on shotgun. The P yes for shooting out of order. But I didn't think shotgun counted as miss. Cause you shoot til down...:huh:

 

That was the initial call...apparently resolved after some discussion:
 

Quote

 a miss for not making up the target at the proper time.. However, since you can only earn 1 P per stage, he was only given 1 P. The miss was negated as he made it up at the wrong time, but he did knock it down with the second shot. (I was spotting for this shooter and we had to read the instructions for the stage again just to make sure we made the right call)

 

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Shot a stage at a Regional Match, several years ago now, that required shooting the shotgun with both feet entirely inside a square that was painted on the ground. The box was barely big enough for both of my size 13 1/2 feet to fit into and the box was positioned so that a left handed shooter was out of position to shoot.

 

The TO promised to remind everyone when they got to that shooting position, but I was the first shooter and he never said a word.  I was awarded the P and when I asked about the promised reminder, the TO simply shrugged and called “next shooter”.  When I pointed it out to the Match Director, he mumbled a weak apology but went no further.

 

Needless to say, I didn’t go back there. The match is now in a different location and when my health improves, I know the host club well and I WILL go there and shoot the match.

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