a date which will live in infamy

[Sedalia Dave]

 

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

 

 

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Had the carriers been in harbor the war would have taken a lot longer to win.  By the end of WW2 battleships were being less effective. Carriers, Cruisers and destroyers were the new fleet.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

[Trailrider #896]

37 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Had the carriers been in harbor the war would have taken a lot longer to win.  By the end of WW2 battleships were being less effective. Carriers, Cruisers and destroyers were the new fleet.

Don't forget the "Silent Service".  Our submarines in the Pacific did tremendous damage to the Japanese Navy and supply ships.  And suffered terrific losses themselves!

  Lest we forget...lest we forget!

[Sixgun Sheridan]

5 minutes ago, Trailrider #896 said:

Don't forget the "Silent Service".  Our submarines in the Pacific did tremendous damage to the Japanese Navy and supply ships.

 

...Once they finally got torpedoes that actually worked.

 

The battleships in Pearl that day were already obsolete, at least in their pre-war configurations. It's a good thing they didn't survive instead of the carriers, as any battle involving them would've ended really badly for us. The new fast battleships like the South Dakota, North Carolina and Iowa were much better fighting ships. Of course once the older ships were modernized during the war they became a lot better.

 

I heard that for the first time there will be no PH survivors present at the ceremony in Hawaii. The risk of COVID was considered too great.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Interesting thing about our submarines. I thought they focused on hunting Jap ships. But in one of the books I read on Iwo Jima it tells the story of how subs patrolled around the islands to pick up downed American flyers. George Bush being one whom they saved when his plane was shot down.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

Allegedly the island near where Bush was shot down (Chichijima) was occupied by Japanese soldiers who had been cut off for so long that they had resorted to cannibalism. Had poor George been captured and eaten who knows how our current history would've been shaped.

[Pat Riot]

[Trailrider #896]

"...Once they finally got torpedoes that actually worked. "

 

Yeah, the pre-war Navy didn't have enough money to properly test the "fish".  As a result they were totally unreliable.  ComSubPac admiral kept accusing the sub skippers of lack of aggressiveness because they weren't sinking ships. Extremely frustrating to hit the side of a "Maru" straight on and have no explosion.  Finally, "Swede" Momson got to experimenting with the exploders at Pearl, and found out the firing pins were too stout. Changed the material and they finally worked like they were supposed to.  (I think this was portrayed in a John Wayne movie.)  Still weren't anything like the Japanese "Long L:ance" torpedoes.  

Worst thing about our torps was a malfunction that would have them "run circular".  That may have been the cause of several of our subs sinking!  RAdm A.C. Burrows, whom my Dad and uncle knew had one do that. Fortunately, it just missed the conning tower!  

 

[Sixgun Sheridan]

Sadly it wasn't the last time we'd lose brave young men to their own weapons the military brass knew was defective. But I won't go any further lest it hijack the thread.

 

 

*cough* XM16E1 *cough*

[Sedalia Dave]

Very good article on the damage inflicted and how we recovered so quickly.  Strangle enough had we been caught at sea the damage to the fleet would have been much greater as none of the ships could have been salvaged.

 

December 7, 1941: The Destruction of the Battle Line at Pearl Harbor

 

 

Another good read.

 

Pearl Harbor resurrection: the warships that rose to fight again

 

Quote

 

The US Navy’s ability to limit the material damage of the Pearl Harbor attack was one of the reasons why Japanese military leaders later came to understand that on that fateful December day they had won a battle, but lost the war.

 

But in the end, time accomplished what they could not. All the recovered ships were eventually sold for scrap, or blown apart in target or atomic weapon tests, or otherwise decommissioned. (The USS Arizona is no longer a commissioned warship, but retains the right to fly the US flag as if she were on active duty.)

 

However, of the 101 US fighting ships present in Hawaiian waters on Dec. 7, 1941, one lives on. It is not a battleship, or a cruiser, or even a destroyer. It is the US Coast Guard Cutter Taney, which fired at attackers with its anti-aircraft guns from its Honolulu Harbor pier.

 

Today USCGC Taney is a museum ship located in Baltimore’s Inner Harbor. It is the last warship survivor of one of the nation’s darkest days still afloat.

 

 

[watab kid]

always remembered here 

[Wyoma]

I think infamy is 50 years.  Ask anyone under 30 what happened on December 7 and you'll get the 1000 yd stare. 

[Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795]

Yeah, History isn't the hottest subject in schools now

[Chantry]

18 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Very good article on the damage inflicted and how we recovered so quickly.  Strangle enough had we been caught at sea the damage to the fleet would have been much greater as none of the ships could have been salvaged.

 

Don't be to sure of that, at sea the ships would have been fully manned and if combat was expected all of the water tight hatches would have been closed and the guns manned and firing back.  It is also likely that one or more of our carriers would have been with the fleet at sea to provide air cover as well.

[Sedalia Dave]

19 minutes ago, Chantry said:

 

Don't be to sure of that, at sea the ships would have been fully manned and if combat was expected all of the water tight hatches would have been closed and the guns manned and firing back.  It is also likely that one or more of our carriers would have been with the fleet at sea to provide air cover as well.

 

We weren't expecting a fight and there was a real possibility that the fleet at sea in the waters around Hawaii could have been surprised and caught with its pants down.

 

Given the number of aircraft the Japanese had in the air, our ships would have had a hard time defending themselves effectively. The Carriers would have been especially vulnerable as most of  their aircraft would have been secured to the deck unarmed or airborne and insufficiently armed to repel an attach much less go on the offensive. 

being the main objective of the attack, they would have had a hard time surviving.  

 

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Chantry said:

 

Don't be to sure of that, at sea the ships would have been fully manned and if combat was expected all of the water tight hatches would have been closed and the guns manned and firing back.  It is also likely that one or more of our carriers would have been with the fleet at sea to provide air cover as well.

 

Given that the US was not at war or under any kind of alert, the carriers would have been sitting ducks much as the ships at Pearl were. If they would have sank our carriers, the war would have been prolonged significantly. Coral Sea would not have happened nor Midway. Without the Midway victory, many of the other battles that resulted in triumphs would not have happened at all.  In fact the enemy would have had free run in the Pacific for quite some time until were were able to produce the ships/machines necessary to try to take them on. Needless to say, the sinking of our carriers would have resulted in disaster for the US.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

5 hours ago, Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795 said:

Yeah, History isn't the hottest subject in schools now

 

It's been that way for quite awhile. When I was in school in the 1980s we were taught one lesson after another about the Crusades, the American Revolution, Slavery, Prohibition, and the civil rights movement. The actual battles of the Civil War were only briefly touched on, and next to nothing was taught about World Wars One and Two. Vietnam? Absolutely NOTHING! I didn't know squat about 'Nam until I was out of school and one day decided to buy a book and start reading about it on my own. Same goes for the Middle East... it was never covered so nobody knew anything about how that place became such a mess to begin with. I'm sure it's only gotten worse in the past three decades, with kids these days knowing all about Martin Luther King Jr but not Martin Luther.

[Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795]

Amen

[Sixgun Sheridan]

Last night I did what has become a routine for me every Dec 7th. I took down my large model of the Arizona and cleaned/dusted it, then went and watched Tora Tora Tora like I always do. Not much else I can do to commemorate the event but at least it's something.

[Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795]

I watched several of the programs on American Heros Channel last night. Wasn't interested in the "Not For Long" league last night.