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Black Angus McPherson

Firearm transfer question

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First, this is purely hypothetical.  The question came to me because I saw a pistol for sale listed "will not ship".  It so happens that my brother lives in the state where it is for sale.

Fact is, I'm not even interested in the firearm that made me think of this.

 

Would it be considered a straw purchase if I had my brother buy the gun and ship it to an FFL near me to be transferred to me?

 

Similar question:  If I bought a gun with the intention to trade it to another person, either in or out of my state, for a gun they had (knowing they wanted the gun I was buying and would make an even trade for the gun they had that I wanted), would that be considered a straw purchase?

 

My logic tells me that either scenario should be fine.  My cynicism tells me the ATF would not agree.  If not allowed by ATF rules, then how could I legally go about obtaining the firearm I wanted?  OK, in scenario two I could outright buy the gun I wanted from the guy that had it, but, maybe the gun I was going to trade cost a lot less than the cash price for the gun I wanted to trade it for.  In scenario one I can't just drive out of state and buy the gun.

 

Just Alpoing, I mean, pondering here.

 

Angus

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If your brother bought the gun and then shipped it to an FFL in your state, you would have to do a background check before you could pick it up. Your brother would have to do one also when it was bought. No straw purchase there.

 

On the trade, if both you and the other party both went to FFL's and traded thru them, background checks would be done. No problem there. If it was face to face, it would depend on the state you lived in. Probably not legal in most states now.

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I'd do it ... BUT ... Do you think the seller might really be wanting to avoid an FFL transfer because of the origin/status of the firearm? :ph34r:

 

edit: Assuming your state does not require and FFL transfer for face to face sales (we don't here in Arizona for residents).

Otherwise ... your brother is going to have to lie on the 4473 form (question 11A) ... which says .. NO .. if you are aquiring the firearm for another person. 

>>

11. Answer the following questions by checking or marking "yes" or "no" in the boxes to the right of the questions. Yes No

 a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?

Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person.

If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)

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Last week I had to ship a handgun out for repair. When I gave the box to the FedEx guy he acted as if I just gave him a package containing a live bomb. I actually had to tell him that it's perfectly legal for an individual to ship a handgun back to the factory. Some people just don't want to deal with the hassles of shipping a firearm and prefer a FTF. Personally I will not do FTF when selling a gun as I never know who the heck is going to show up. I'd rather it be sent to an FFL and let them deal with it.

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With that seller's restrictions. 

I would check the serial number to be sure it ain't stolen.

OLG 

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1 hour ago, Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life said:

If your brother bought the gun and then shipped it to an FFL in your state, you would have to do a background check before you could pick it up. Your brother would have to do one also when it was bought. No straw purchase there.

 

On the trade, if both you and the other party both went to FFL's and traded thru them, background checks would be done. No problem there. If it was face to face, it would depend on the state you lived in. Probably not legal in most states now.

I have an Arizona CCP and live in the state.  I have purchased guns here and after the first one there is no background check and none on face-to-face purchases.

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1 hour ago, Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life said:

If your brother bought the gun and then shipped it to an FFL in your state, you would have to do a background check before you could pick it up. Your brother would have to do one also when it was bought. No straw purchase there.

 

On the trade, if both you and the other party both went to FFL's and traded thru them, background checks would be done. No problem there. If it was face to face, it would depend on the state you lived in. Probably not legal in most states now.

 

Assuming the firearm in question is legal in all respects. (otherwise irrelevant to my actual question)

 

I think a face to face transfer is legal in my brother's state and I know it is in mine.  So, there would be no background check when he bought it for me, but there would be a background check when it was transferred to me from my LGS.  Still legal?

 

For the trade of my newly acquired firearm to my buddy (who, for the sake of this discussion, lives in my state) for the gun he had that I wanted no FFL involvement would be required.  Still legal?  I'm actually buying the gun, but I'm buying it knowing I will use it to trade.  So what if I just knew I was going to sell it for a profit?

 

1 hour ago, Patagonia Pete said:

I'd do it ... BUT ... Do you think the seller might really be wanting to avoid an FFL transfer because of the origin/status of the firearm? :ph34r:

 

edit: Assuming your state does not require and FFL transfer for face to face sales (we don't here in Arizona for residents).

Otherwise ... your brother is going to have to lie on the 4473 form (question 11A) ... which says .. NO .. if you are aquiring the firearm for another person. 

>>

11. Answer the following questions by checking or marking "yes" or "no" in the boxes to the right of the questions. Yes No

 a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?

Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person.

If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)

 

Interesting.  IF my brother's state required all firearm transfers to go thru an FFL could he just commission the FFL he and the seller met at for their deal to directly ship the gun to my FFL for the transfer to me?  Thereby my brother would not be taking possession of the firearm himself?  I would think if the seller had to go to an FFL for ANY transfer he wouldn't have reason for the "no shipping" rule.

 

What if my brother saw a gun, knew I would like it, and bought it for me as a gift?  I thought you were allowed to buy firearms to give as a gift.  How does that fit in on the 4473?  Ignoring the next question of FtF or shipping to me.

 

Simple things should be simple.

 

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17 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

> snip <

So what if I just knew I was going to sell it for a profit?

> snip <

 

OMGosh ... don't say that ... That sounds like a person who is in the business of buying and selling firearms ... a dealer ... and that person needs a license (FFL). 

If I were you ... I would have my brother buy it ... and the next time you two were together he could gift it to you ... (he doesn't have to know you are still on parole). :huh:

If it is going to be awhile he could send it to an FFL in your state for you ....

Bud's has a great service for this ... and depending on the area you may find individual FFLs willing to provide this service. 

https://www.shipmygun.com/go/

 

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6 hours ago, Patagonia Pete said:

OMGosh ... don't say that ... That sounds like a person who is in the business of buying and selling firearms ... a dealer ... and that person needs a license (FFL). 

If I were you ... I would have my brother buy it ... and the next time you two were together he could gift it to you ... (he doesn't have to know you are still on parole). :huh:

If it is going to be awhile he could send it to an FFL in your state for you ....

Bud's has a great service for this ... and depending on the area you may find individual FFLs willing to provide this service. 

https://www.shipmygun.com/go/

 

 

Actually, a number of years ago I applied for an FFL and the ATF refused to even send me an application because buying and selling guns was not going to be "a primary source of income".   Since I only expected to buy and/or sell 2 or 3 guns a year I didn't qualify to get an FFL.

 

 

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When I found the twin brother of my OM Bisley Vaquero, I bought it knowing the seller refused to ship to CA.
I found an FFL two blocks up the street from the seller (Junction City, KS) who was willing to ship to CA.
The seller (pawn shop) very graciously walked it 2 block up the street, and even refunded the $20 he was charging me to ship.
I paid the 2nd FFL, and after all the CA baloney on my end, I have it in my hands now.

 

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Well the ATF agents who regularly peruses these types of boards will now be very interested in you and your brother's activities.....

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Howdy,

There are so many 'if' and 'I think' statements I think I am getting

a headache.

If someone wants to know about firearm laws they should see

one or more local ffl holders.

Your local dealers get updates and I hear they have occasional classes.

Best

CR

 

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It is a straw purchase regardless of filling out a 4473.  Purchasing with the intent to sell to a specific someone else.  Intent to flip for a profit to an unknown person is not a straw purchase but you need to be careful of unlicensed dealer laws.

 

As Patagonia Pete said, he can legally buy it as a gift for you.  When you take possession from him, it should be transferred through an FFL in your state.

 

If the seller is unwilling to ship, ask if they are willing to drop it off at a local FFL shop.  Call local shops until you find one willing to box it and ship it.  If the seller is still unwilling, ask if they would sell it to a local store.  You can prepay the store and they will buy it to flip to you after adding their profit margin.

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3 hours ago, Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 said:

Well the ATF agents who regularly peruses these types of boards will now be very interested in you and your brother's activities.....

 

LOL  They are going to be very bored.  My brother has never bought a gun in his life, although, he did once own a BB gun when we were kids.

 

And if they really are interested, he lives in Texas.  They're on their own from there.

 

Seriously, guys, this really was a purely hypothetical question brought about by a post for a gun I don't even really want.  I got curious.

 

Oh, one unanswered question:  If a person buys a gun as a gift for someone else how do they fill out the 4473?

 

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1 minute ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

LOL  They are going to be very bored.  My brother has never bought a gun in his life, although, he did once own a BB gun when we were kids.

 

And if they really are interested, he lives in Texas.  They're on their own from there.

 

Seriously, guys, this really was a purely hypothetical question brought about by a post for a gun I don't even really want.  I got curious.

 

Oh, one unanswered question:  If a person buys a gun as a gift for someone else how do they fill out the 4473?

 

ATF has been known to be overly proactive...  As far as buying a gun as a gift, search the ATF web site for the correct answer. OR call them.

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14 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

> snip <

Oh, one unanswered question:  If a person buys a gun as a gift for someone else how do they fill out the 4473?

> snip <

It is not really possible to purchase a gun ... "as a gift" ... in cases where you have to complete form 4473 (purchasing through an FFL etc) ... 

... because ...

You would have to lie on line 11A of the form ...

          >> Line 11a - asks ... 

"11a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?"

          >> And provides this guidance ... right on the form ... next to the question ...

"Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person.

If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you."

          >> It also lists an exception ...

"Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)"

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9 minutes ago, Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 said:

ATF has been known to be overly proactive...  As far as buying a gun as a gift, search the ATF web site for the correct answer. OR call them.

 

A:  Some poor ATF bugger is probably stuck in quarantine working from home bored to death.  He or she can investigate me and my brother to death.  He'll still be bored, but it'll give him something to do.

 

B:  GOOD LORD!!  How much time do you think I have? :D  I don't have the time to deep dive a gov't website for information or sit on hold for hours just because I got curious.  That's what you guys are for.  :lol:  There's one of us cowboys out there that has the answer to everything.  If we aren't "the guy" then we "know a guy".

 

Question to an FFL (Yes, I'm too lazy to visit a LGS to ask):  If a person were to come in to your store and told you they wanted to buy a gun as a gift for another person, how would you tell them to go about it?  Is there a way to LEGALLY fill out the 4473 stating you were buying the gun as a gift?  Or are you still considered "the actual buyer"?  I KNOW people buy guns as Christmas and birthday gifts.  I'd like to know how they do it legally?

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2 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

It is not really possible to purchase a gun ... "as a gift" ... in cases where you have to complete form 4473 (purchasing through an FFL etc) ... 

... because ...

You would have to lie on line 11A of the form ...

          >> Line 11a - asks ... 

"11a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form?"

          >> And provides this guidance ... right on the form ... next to the question ...

"Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person.

If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you."

          >> It also lists an exception ...

"Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)"

 

Pete, I really appreciate you taking the time to bounce this back and forth with me.

 

RE:  11A  "Warning:.... acquiring... on BEHALF of another person."  Picking legal nits, but, I define "on behalf of" to be along the lines of "at the request of".  If I buy it as an unrequested gift I don't see that as the same thing.  I understand the ATF and courts might disagree.  But, Dave telling me to go buy that rifle for him isn't the same as me deciding "Dave really needs a new hunting rifle"  I bet he'd really like that one."

 

Too bad we're 1000 miles apart and all the coffee shops are closed.  This could make an interesting discussion over lunch.

 

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Try this article ... it is from somewhere else .. does a better job of explaining ... 

 

> snip < 

Even though people can legally dispose of guns in the secondary market, they can’t buy them on behalf of others from federally licensed dealers. It doesn’t matter whether the person who will keep the gun is eligible to own it—purchasers who are caught lying in the application process will likely face criminal charges.

Example: A former police officer named Abramski offered to buy a Glock 19 handgun for his uncle, named Alvarez. (Abramski v. U.S., 573 U.S. ___ (2014).) Alvarez could have legally bought the gun himself, but Abramski was supposed to be able to get a discount. So, Alvarez provided Abramski $400, and Abramski purchased the handgun from a federally licensed dealer. When filling out the requisite government form, despite a warning that misrepresentation was a federal offense, Abramski indicated that he was buying the weapon on his own behalf. After the sale was complete, he transferred it to Alvarez. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld Abramski’s conviction under federal law that prohibits making false statements and representations in the course of firearm purchases. (18 U.S.C. § § 922(a)(6), 924(a)(1)(A).)

> snip < 

reference: https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/is-it-illegal-buy-a-gun-someone-else.htm

 

edit: Yes .. and you are right ... the gift aspect seems different ... AND ... you will similar articles that will say it is OK.

Better sometime to just do it ... 

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Isn't this entire hypothetical based on acquiring a handgun over state lines?  I know that there's no problem with long guns, but I thought a handgun transaction where the buyer did not live in the state of the seller had to go through an FFL.  Am I mistaken?

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“Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.”

From the ATF.  You are also allowed to gift to a minor under certain conditions.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

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Well, that sucks for Abramski, but Since Alverez gave him the money to buy the gun he clearly wasn't buying it for himself, so, not a gift.

I wonder what the result would have been had there been no exchange of money between Abramski and Alverez.

 

The article also stated "...federal law generally doesn't stop people from giving guns as gifts..." so I'm still seeing an undefined gray area.

 

If I buy a gun "on my own behalf" to give as a gift to someone who can legally own it....?

 

Marshall Hangtree,   You are correct.  That is what started this discussion.  And it is also my understanding that a handgun transfer across state lines requires an FFL.

 

This has progressed to the question of how someone can LEGALLY purchase a firearm (fill out a 4473) thru an FFL for the purpose of gifting it to someone else.

 

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1 minute ago, sassnetguy50 said:

“Question 11.a. Actual Transferee/Buyer: For purposes of this form, a person is the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is purchasing the firearm for him/herself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for him/herself. (e.g., redeeming the firearm from pawn, retrieving it from consignment, firearm raffle winner). A person is also the actual transferee/buyer if he/she is legitimately purchasing the firearm as a bona fide gift for a third party. A gift is not bona fide if another person offered or gave the person completing this form money, service(s), or item(s) of value to acquire the firearm for him/her, or if the other person is prohibited by law from receiving or possessing the firearm.”

From the ATF.  You are also allowed to gift to a minor under certain conditions.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

 

BINGO!!  Thanks sassnetguy50!  I knew there was something allowing the gift of a firearm.

 

Man, I love you guys and gals.  You know EVERYTHING!!

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14 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

Isn't this entire hypothetical based on acquiring a handgun over state lines?  I know that there's no problem with long guns, but I thought a handgun transaction where the buyer did not live in the state of the seller had to go through an FFL.  Am I mistaken?

Aquiring any firearm in an interstate private transaction requires facilitation by an FFL.  The long gun exception is for buying from an FFL outside of your home state.  You can take possession of a long arm from an FFL out of state but not from an individual.

 

Exception:  An unlicensed person can receive a firearm(s) interstate from the deceased if there was a legal bequest in the will.

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34 minutes ago, sassnetguy50 said:

Aquiring any firearm in an interstate private transaction requires facilitation by an FFL.  The long gun exception is for buying from an FFL outside of your home state.  You can take possession of a long arm from an FFL out of state but not from an individual.

 

Exception:  An unlicensed person can receive a firearm(s) interstate from the deceased if there was a legal bequest in the will.

Thanks for the clarification, Sir.

Cheers y'all.

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