Tennessee williams Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:52 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I think the "RO" requirement to be way overrated. Some of the best PM's were old school SASS folks that never even took an RO course... And I've encountered many that think they are awesome and ready to go cuz they got their pin. PM's should of course know the rules... But they need to also focus on respecting each shooters desires and goals for the match. Phantom PS: They should also be ready to work their butts off!! Some just volunteer to be PM's for the little trinkets they get and off load most of their responsibilities to other posse members. Wait a minute! I didn't get any trinkets! Your comment on respecting each shooters desires and goals for the match is spot on. I think that needs to be reiterated until people are sick of hearing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Assassin said: The RO training can be an integral component of becoming a good Posse Marshall. Some folks have lousy reading comprehension, some don't have good listening comprehension. We used a type of apprenticeship program before the RO classes.started in 2000. Everyone wasn't on the same page. There are a lot of skills and abilities that come together to make a good PM. One of them is the ability to multi-task and watch many things at once. Excluding the T. O. job for the moment (which is worse for its multi-tasking requirement) it takes a lot of attention to be sure all tasks in the posse are covered, and to watch the action closely enough to detect problems or make tough deciding calls under pressure. Not everyone can do that effectively, regardless of training. It is much more than just understanding the rules, or having a couple RO pins. It involves the ability to manage, direct, and lead, while enabling everyone to have the best time possible. But where the rubber really meets the road is when there is a serious accident. The PM must instantly take charge to handle a whole bunch of medical-related and response-related tasks, in addition to handling the posse. RO training, and even apprenticeship don't prepare a person for that. The person can either multi-task effectively and quickly determine courses of action when the chips are down, or they cannot. Without military style intensive training and drill, most (but not all) PMs I have seen were not prepared for that kind of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said: For some people it will be very helpful and they'll be much better TOs for having taken it. For others it won't do much at all. We do need to make a distinction here between PM duties and TO duties. They are different. In many cases, the PM also acts as the TO, at least a part of the time. Doing both is a huge breadth of responsibility. It seems to me that a good plan is to separate the two jobs as much a possible. That also gives more people the valuable experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 DDD, I say this with a great deal of experience with many of those "old school" SASS members from well before any such RO instruction became formalized. Formalized RO training does not make a great PM, or even a great TO... it provides a basis for which the individual can form a framework to BEGIN his/her trip thru running a posse. Many PMs, dare I even say the vast majority of PMs will never have those skills tested in an emergency situation... for they are truly rare in all of SASSdom. That isn't to say that Match Directors shouldn't seek those folks out that have those skills... far from it... but finding those individuals in an environment of total volunteerism, ah... that takes talent... I have a couple of analogies... but most folks won't like them... I'll just say that I have an inordinate amount of trepidation with the college-educated, theory loaded individual bursting with confidence. (Or doing a very good job of camouflaging their fear with outward confidence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Wouldn't it be great if there was actually some kind of informal "apprenticeship" sort of system? Where a good Posse Marshal might take someone under their wing and sort of show them the ropes of what they do and why? Right now, it's sort of "ok, I'll volunteer"... but unless that person actually has a good grasp of what needs to be done, by previous exposure, there are going to be bumps in the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, McCandless said: Wouldn't it be great if there was actually some kind of informal "apprenticeship" sort of system? Where a good Posse Marshal might take someone under their wing and sort of show them the ropes of what they do and why? Right now, it's sort of "ok, I'll volunteer"... but unless that person actually has a good grasp of what needs to be done, by previous exposure, there are going to be bumps in the road. Before the current system we did have a type of apprenticeship program. It may have been localized in this region. With the current system we have more consistency in the rules. However, it takes quite a few matches under supervision before I would consider someone a good RO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Assassin said: Before the current system we did have a type of apprenticeship program. It may have been localized in this region. With the current system we have more consistency in the rules. However, it takes quite a few matches under supervision before I would consider someone a good RO. I mentored under China Camp. I remember the first time he gave me the timer...and I remember the first time he took it away from me You had to earn the right to run a posse...having a "Pin" meant nothing...and CC never took an RO course! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 18 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I mentored under China Camp. I remember the first time he gave me the timer...and I remember the first time he took it away from me You had to earn the right to run a posse...having a "Pin" meant nothing...and CC never took an RO course! Phantom What a great mentor to recognize. Mine was Texas Paladin. I agree pin can often carry little meaning. I don't even care to wear them anymore. I think one's reputation as PM, such as yours, the yearly "invite" to be PM at major shoots by MDs, and the "posse request" from shooters point to fact the PM is doing things right. Perfect, for me, never, but I still like doing the job in the cowboy way, add humor, and get-a-long with posse members (some can often be trying). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I mentored under China Camp. I remember the first time he gave me the timer...and I remember the first time he took it away from me You had to earn the right to run a posse...having a "Pin" meant nothing...and CC never took an RO course! Phantom I mentored under Hipshot... I know where my attitude came from! And it's a whole lot easier now with electronic timers... those stop watches were the pits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Taking the class and getting the pins aren’t enough to even be an RO/TO. It’s got to be part of ongoing learning... I had my RO II for a couple of years before I ran the timer or “felt confident” enough to be a PM. When I’d fill out match apps and it asked if RO 1 or 2.... willing to be a PM... I felt bad checking yes to RO2 and yet unwilling to be a PM because I had not put my “classroom learning” into practice on the range. I hear both Phantom and Capt. Bill Burt’s points. I DO think that some folks get their pins, put them on their hats or holster rigs and never open or study the SHB again. When I was a senior in college I had a bumper sticker that said, “ Hire A College Student While They Still Know It All”... Hugs, Scarlett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 On 7/16/2019 at 8:35 AM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Sometimes facts inflame and insult those that need it. I totally agree with Phantom, I have been doing this for 25 years and I cant believe how many times I have wanted to take a RO pin away from some one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ The Red Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 It is a simple thing - just become engaged with your local club and take an interest in helping as a volunteer. There is a wide personal character range in the PMs in the clubs where I shoot. While they all have safety and consistency as number one, they each interact with the Posse in different, impactful ways. I watch them carefully and ask questions about different rulings. Some of the best are Assassin, Phantom, 69 Cent Wizard, Kid Bucklin, Stirrup Trouble, and Marshall Lomondo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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