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PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

Moving from LT w/shotgun closed & cocked

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- Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked. 

SHB p.22 - Penalties Overview - Stage Disqualification Penalty (SDQ)  



This applies to ALL LONG GUNS (loaded or not) on the firing line, including moving from the loading table (LT).

 

Firing line - from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table

 

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Well I guess that confirms the debate that was on Facebook; it was being posted and promoted that it was confirmed it did not include the LT. But I fact, it does include movement from the LT. Thank you for clarifying this.


 

 
  • mn

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Hey PWB,


In October, you posted the following about when the shooter comes to the Staging Position with a closed, cocked SG.

"LOADED = SDQ

UNLOADED = NO CALL...open action & stage"

 

Is this no longer in effect?

 

Thanks for any information.

 

AM

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hey PWB,


In October, you posted the following about when the shooter comes to the Staging Position with a closed, cocked SG.

"LOADED = SDQ

UNLOADED = NO CALL...open action & stage"

 

Is this no longer in effect?

 

 

YES...this most recent ROC ruling overrides that opinion posted back in October, which was based on application of the "Movement with a cocked LOADED firearm" rule/penalty.
The basis for that earlier opinion was that the SHOTGUN is hardly ever loaded at the LT; as well as the "Movement..." rule being that which has been the one applied to a closed/cocked & loaded RIFLE from the LT to the staging point.

 

 

 

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Not trying to be a smart A 

But what about the exposed hammer shotgun 

Hammers are not cocked but action is closed 

Is it still a SDQ

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1 hour ago, Bittertrigger said:

Not trying to be a smart A 

But what about the exposed hammer shotgun 

Hammers are not cocked but action is closed 

Is it still a SDQ

The post starts out with this sentence:  So I'm assuming that unless the hammers are cocked it's a "No-call".

 Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked

 

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2 hours ago, Bittertrigger said:

Not trying to be a smart A 

But what about the exposed hammer shotgun 

Hammers are not cocked but action is closed 

Is it still a SDQ

 

38 minutes ago, Hairtrigger Hayes said:

The post starts out with this sentence:  So I'm assuming that unless the hammers are cocked it's a "No-call".

 Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked

 

 

This ROC ruling only applies to a COCKED long gun.

I'm polling the ROC on the 2nd question before posting my opinion on that one.

 

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Am I the only one that thinks this ain't rocket science.  If the stage is described as from the loading table to the unloading table... then leaving the loading table would be considered "movement" and the rule for said firearm condition would apply:

Quote

Safe conditions of firearms for movement or leaving a shooters hand vary with each type of
firearm. Please see the SASS Range operations Basic Safety Course for a detailed
description of what constitutes a safe firearm conditions for movement.

Quote

Safe for movement rifle in hand only
•Hammer fully down on an expended round, action closed

Quote

Safe for movement shotgun in hand only
• Action open

No question in my mind that the hammer of a rifle must be down, and the shotgun must be open... hammer position is inconsequential.

 

Those quotes are from the 2007 SHB and ROI manual.  

Sometimes re-writing rules allows for inconsistent interpretations.

 

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3 hours ago, Griff said:

Am I the only one that thinks this ain't rocket science.  

If the stage is described as from the loading table to the unloading table...It is NOT (see below) LT to ULT is the FIRING LINE.

 

then leaving the loading table would be considered "movement" and the rule for said firearm condition would apply:

No question in my mind that the hammer of a rifle must be down, and the shotgun must be open... hammer position is inconsequential.

 

Those quotes are from the 2007 SHB and ROI manual.  

That is 10 years out-of-date

Sometimes re-writing rules allows for inconsistent interpretations.

 

 

REF:

SHB Ver, 22.3 2017 pp.13-17 "FIREARM CONVENTIONS"

 

also:
 

Quote

 

Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. 

...

Stage – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to the last shot fired. 

 

SHB pp. 43-44 "Glossary of Terms"

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I see many shotguns ( doubles ) close on the way to the loading and unloading table does this mean since "hammerless" shotguns are cocked on opening they get a SDQ ????

Serve them right for not shooting a Hammered Gun !!! :P-_-:ph34r:

 

Jabez Cowboy

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41 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

I see many shotguns ( doubles ) close on the way to the loading and unloading table does this mean since "hammerless" shotguns are cocked on opening they get a SDQ ????

YES...if the shooter doesn't stop and either open it or get assistance in doing so.
That situation is the primary reason for this clarification regarding which rule applies.

 

Serve them right for not shooting a Hammered Gun !!! :P-_-:ph34r:

Same penalty would apply if an external hammer SG was "pre-cocked" at the LT and it closed while moving to the staging point.

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

 

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Oaky so just to get this straight, if a shooter is coming to the firing line with rifle and shotgun in hands and the shotgun closes (I've seen it happen on a 97 also) . if they STOP and open it everything's okay no penalty?

 

Thanks, Rye

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6 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Oaky so just to get this straight, if a shooter is coming to the firing line with rifle and shotgun in hands and the shotgun closes (I've seen it happen on a 97 also) .

if they STOP and open it everything's okay no penalty?

 

Thanks, Rye

 

YES...there would be NO PENALTY for either "changing location" or "moving" if the shooter STOPS as soon as the SG closes; 

and either opens it or gets assistance to do so (e.g. hands off the rifle if necessary).

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On 11/24/2018 at 1:53 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:
  10 hours ago, Griff said:

Am I the only one that thinks this ain't rocket science.  

If the stage is described as from the loading table to the unloading table...It is NOT (see below) LT to ULT is the FIRING LINE.

 

then leaving the loading table would be considered "movement" and the rule for said firearm condition would apply:

No question in my mind that the hammer of a rifle must be down, and the shotgun must be open... hammer position is inconsequential.

 

Those quotes are from the 2007 SHB and ROI manual.  

That is 10 years out-of-date

Sometimes re-writing rules allows for inconsistent interpretations.

 

 

REF:

SHB Ver, 22.3 2017 pp.13-17 "FIREARM CONVENTIONS"

Yeah, I sometimes interchange the two, (stage & firing line)... But the age of the language is kinda my point.  The language has not changed, (except in the case of the shotgun now mirroring the rifle).  Ergo, our interpretation of the rule should not be also.  

 

But, as I see from the next coupla posts, moving from the loading table, or to the unloading table we can get a little lax.  Sorry my post wasn't clearer as to my intent.

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58 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

YES...there would be NO PENALTY for either "changing location" or "moving" if the shooter STOPS as soon as the SG closes; 

and either opens it or gets assistance to do so (e.g. hands off the rifle if necessary).

Thanks Pale Wolf!!;)

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Would the use of shotgun chamber flags inserted in the chamber to show clear and prevent the action from closing be permissible, much like those used in 3 gun?

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2 hours ago, El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942 said:

Would the use of shotgun chamber flags inserted in the chamber to show clear and prevent the action from closing be permissible, much like those used in 3 gun?

We are talking about on the firing line. - Between the Loading table and the Unloading table. 

Flags have to be removed to use the gun. The most logical place to remove the flag is your cart BEFORE you take it to the Loading table.

 

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38 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

We are talking about on the firing line. - Between the Loading table and the Unloading table. 

Flags have to be removed to use the gun. The most logical place to remove the flag is your cart BEFORE you take it to the Loading table.

 

I was referring to use them- from the loading table to where the shotgun is staged, if a person is afraid the shotgun would close while carrying.  Obviously remove them before starting the stage.  They could be put back in I suppose for the same reason after the stage, while carrying over to the unloading table.

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Hmmmmm.......  the long guns are to be carried w/muzzles up, pointed slightly down range, shotguns empty w/action open.  In the case of the '97, doesn't this mean the slide is back, or in the case of the nearly vertical gun, down?  Yes, I can close the action one-handed on mine, but it takes a pretty brisk determined action to do so... not something I do in the normal course of walking.  So, the problem is the double... I meet the SASS rule by carrying it by the forearm, nearly at its balance point, with muzzles tilted downrange, the buttstock down, & nearly vertical.  In either case, any flag in the chamber is FAR, FAR more likely to fall out than the action to close.

 

Good grief people, if you need help moving w/two longuns in hand, ASK.  Far more embarrassing to fall, drop guns or sweep someone when all can be avoided by simply asking for a hand.  I sometimes think our Buckaroo/ette & Junior shooters show more maturity than the supposed "adults" in this game.  Or, if you see someone strugglin' to maintain control, step up & volunteer.  Shows me more character than standin' & watchin' a person fumblin' a gun and earnin' a penalty. realitycheck.gif

 

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3 minutes ago, Griff said:

Hmmmmm.......  the long guns are to be carried w/muzzles up, pointed slightly down range, shotguns empty w/action open.  In the case of the '97, doesn't this mean the slide is back, or in the case of the nearly vertical gun, down?  Yes, I can close the action one-handed on mine, but it takes a pretty brisk determined action to do so... not something I do in the normal course of walking.  So, the problem is the double... I meet the SASS rule by carrying it by the forearm, nearly at its balance point, with muzzles tilted downrange, the buttstock down, & nearly vertical.  In either case, any flag in the chamber is FAR, FAR more likely to fall out than the action to close.

 

Good grief people, if you need help moving w/two longuns in hand, ASK.  Far more embarrassing to fall, drop guns or sweep someone when all can be avoided by simply asking for a hand.  I sometimes think our Buckaroo/ette & Junior shooters show more maturity than the supposed "adults" in this game.  Or, if you see someone strugglin' to maintain control, step up & volunteer.  Shows me more character than standin' & watchin' a person fumblin' a gun and earnin' a penalty. realitycheck.gif

 

Okay Dusty, that should read OFTEN.

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3 hours ago, Griff said:

Hmmmmm.......  the long guns are to be carried w/muzzles up, pointed slightly down range, shotguns empty w/action open.  In the case of the '97, doesn't this mean the slide is back, or in the case of the nearly vertical gun, down?  Yes, I can close the action one-handed on mine, but it takes a pretty brisk determined action to do so... not something I do in the normal course of walking.  So, the problem is the double... I meet the SASS rule by carrying it by the forearm, nearly at its balance point, with muzzles tilted downrange, the buttstock down, & nearly vertical.  In either case, any flag in the chamber is FAR, FAR more likely to fall out than the action to close.

 

Good grief people, if you need help moving w/two longuns in hand, ASK.  Far more embarrassing to fall, drop guns or sweep someone when all can be avoided by simply asking for a hand.  I sometimes think our Buckaroo/ette & Junior shooters show more maturity than the supposed "adults" in this game.  Or, if you see someone strugglin' to maintain control, step up & volunteer.  Shows me more character than standin' & watchin' a person fumblin' a gun and earnin' a penalty. realitycheck.gif

 

I don't disagree with you, in fact I more than agree with you about part of your post.  BUT there is no need to post a sh**ty response to the intelligence of shooters about a question that was brought up at our local match.  Chamber flags can be had that don't just fall out.

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On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 6:45 AM, El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942 said:

Would the use of shotgun chamber flags inserted in the chamber to show clear and prevent the action from closing be permissible, much like those used in 3 gun?

 

There are no rules prohibiting doing so.

Practicality would depend on SG action type & the type of chamber flag used.

Shooter's responsibility to remove it in order to stage the SG "open & EMPTY".

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WOW... I've missed this thread. This past weekend I was ask about a SXS shotgun closing while the shooter was moving from the LT to the stage and his shotgun closed. My response was that it was a no-call, that the shooter just needed to open it when he staged it. I see that I was wrong. sorry Sam...  It sure seems like a heavy handed call to me. We can just decide to not use a Loading table Officer because someone doesn't want to deal with it yet we will hammer some poor shooter who's shotgun closes while in-route to the stage...  I will of course comply but it seems to me like we are loosing respect for what is and is not a serious enough event to give someone a SDQ. What ever happen to using a little "Common Sense". 

 

Snakebite

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On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 6:46 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

There would be NO PENALTY for either "changing location" or "moving" if the shooter STOPS as soon as the SG closes; 

and either opens it or gets assistance to do so (e.g. hands off the rifle if necessary). 

 

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Yes, thank you. I sometimes get "Emotional" about things that don't make sense to me, but as I said... I will comply and will announce it to my club at our next match. The good news is that folks are pretty much aware that we don't load the shotgun at the loading table in CAS. I've been lucky in my 25+ years at this and have never seen anyone load their shotgun at the Loading table. Maybe it happens more often in NM and AZ than it does out here, don't know.  I wonder if a sxs is more likely to close if it is carried by the Forend rather than carrying it by the grip. I've seen some folks the didn't have a lot of hand strength carry their SG that way. Any how.. as the old saying goes: "That's the way it is". tnx

 

Snakebite

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