Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 U.S. Commandos Want Lighter Machine Gun Ammo i always admired the BAR, myself. and the Soviet PK. The German concept of the infantry being built from fire teams -- worked. 5 man team: MG34 or MG42, ammo man, and 3 riflemen -- to protect the MG but you need a good MG -- something like the PK or the M60 the above is an interesting read -- SOCOM looking at caseless ammo -- and also the 6,5mm Quote SOCOM has several small arms projects for its marksmen, including adopting the 6.5-millimeter Creedmore round for its sniper rifles. The goal is to double hit probability at 1,000 meters (1,093 yards) versus legacy ammunition, as well as increase effective range 40 percent, reduce wind drift by 30 percent and have less recoil. SOCOM also has its Advanced Sniper Rifle project to replace the multiple models of sniper weapons that currently equip U.S. commandos. A standardized rifle would minimize logistics and maintenance issues. SOCOM is also exploring a lightweight assault machine gun chambered for 6.5-millimeter ammunition. Other projects include a new upper receiver group for the M4A1 carbine, a suppressed upper receiver group for rifles, more advanced rifle scopes and night vision devices, as well as improved 105-millimeter and 30-millimeter shells for heavier weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 The M60 is NOT a good machine gun! Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 The SAW 249 is a good one. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 27 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said: The M60 is NOT a good machine gun! Duffield There may be a few in service still, but even the National Guard units I was aware of had transitioned to the M240 by the time I retired in 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 what's a good MG ? one that works when you need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Here we go again with more tax money being wasted on the “caseless ammo” horse$#!t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 19 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: Here we go again with more tax money being wasted on the “caseless ammo” horse$#!t. now "back in the day" they used to make paper ctgs for the 1860 Army Colt. Which was a .44 Colt, BTW. the paper was soaked in nitrate so it would burn when the ctg was fired. so caseless ammo ain't exactly new when I retired from MIARNGUS in 2001 -- the M60 was still our service weapon. It's the only MG i've ever actually fired. a lot of M60 were used by the Army. maybe not perfect -- but what weapon is "perfect"? each has its best application. Where you need a rifle -- a carbine is not as good; where you need a Uzi an M14 is going to be clumsy. I don't understand why our soldiers can't have at least 3 arms in the armory for each man -- a rifle, a carbine, and a shotgun. issue weapons based on conditions -- ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 said: now "back in the day" they used to make paper ctgs for the 1860 Army Colt. Which was a .44 Colt, BTW. Apple meet orange... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 33 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: Apple meet orange... c'mon Pat I just couldn't resist a remark about the 1860 Army Colt where's Calico ?? Bring out the rye!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 the Airforce seems to be in an endless pursuit of the Ultimate Strike Fighter: the one plane that "does it all" yeah a combination is better. Just like the Bf-109 and Ju-87 combination we have the F-15 and A-10 combination! In the Situation Today though -- just like we had to have Wild Weasels -- Thuds -- back in 'Nam -- we need to be able to suppress the S-300 and S-400 systems. So, now we have our new Thud,...... the F-35. a good counter-battery missile -- like the HARM -- is is Good Thing to have the Soviets used an Il2 Shturmoviks ground attack plane to great effect. Our Skyraiders worked pretty good, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Have they looked at the .45/70 Gatling gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Sounds like a daunting task. Unless new weapons that have a breach/bolt the can seal a proof round gas pressure the case head has to seal that pressure are developed. A polymer case ain't going to do it and have the same or greater case volume. The currently available composite case ammo is more like shotgun hulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 5 hours ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said: The M60 is NOT a good machine gun! Duffield Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 50 minutes ago, Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 said: Have they looked at the .45/70 Gatling gun? Yeah. They electrified it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 more fun stuff on new MG for the Army The U.S. Military Is Doubling Down On The ‘Super SAW’ Machine Gun some excerpts, of course: Quote The Department of Defense recently awarded FN America, a South Carolina-based arms manufacturer, a $13.45 million contract to provide both the 5.56mm Mk 46 and 7.62mm Mk 48 light machine guns to SOCOM, The Firearm Blog reports. ah HA! a new 7,62 mm gun !! and,..... Quote But it’s worth noting that the new contract with FN comes just a few months after SOCOM officials unveiled plans for a so-called “assault machine gun” chambered in 6.5mm Creedmoor, a smaller cartridge than the standard 7.62mm ammo that remains more effective for long-range fire support than the 5.56mm M249 SAW ammo. Here are the details of SOCOM’s new intermediate caliber ammo, per The War Zone : In testing in 2017, special operators shooting rifles modified to fire 6.5mm Creedmoor were twice as likely to hit their targets compared those using control guns in the existing 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. Special Operations Command also evaluated .260 Remington and collected data on the performance of all three types of ammunition in the FN Mk 20 Mod 0 Sniper Support Rifle, the Knight’s Armament Company M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS), and Heckler and Koch M110A1 Compact Semi-Automatic Sniper System (CSASS). The testing also showed that the 6.5mm versions of the weapons have 40 percent greater range and less recoil than their 7.62mm counterparts. The round was 30 percent less susceptible to wind drift, as well, making it more precise at those distances. ever since I got me a 6,5mm rifle I've got quite a likin' to the Creedmoor ctg. I think it makes better sense than the Grendel or the 6,8mm SPC; the .260 Rem looks pretty interesting though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 I've always admired the BAR interestingly the Soviets make a PK MG 7,62 mm Tokarev -- the action -- having been designed by none other than Mikhail Kalashnikov. weight is about 9.8 kg -- similar to a BAR which weighs ~ 20lb the concept having been adopted from the Wehrmacht fire team -- five men based on the MG42, with ammo guy and 3 riflemen, the 3 riflemen being assigned to protect the MG the temptation for the us Army suppliers will be to over-complicate the design work, ..... a good MG being one that works when you need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said: Yeah. They electrified it. yep, and the Warthogs fly around with one in their teeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 I am personally aware of the final testing on the new SDM rifle. The Creed was chosen over the 260 because the long special bullet they develped by the time it was seated in the 260 case there wasn't enough space for the required powder charge. The tradeoff however is that Creed semi-autos are Extremely finicky and difficult to run with various loads whereas the 260 will run with almost anything. Time will tell if the choice was wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said: I am personally aware of the final testing on the new SDM rifle. The Creed was chosen over the 260 because the long special bullet they develped by the time it was seated in the 260 case there wasn't enough space for the required powder charge. The tradeoff however is that Creed semi-autos are Extremely difficult to run with various loads whereas the 260 will run with almost anything. Time will tell if the choice was wise. i wonder if that 30 deg shoulder angle on the case affects the ammo in an automatic ,.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 G W, there were some initial problems but LaRue, JP, and a couple of other specialty houses figured it out and that isn't as unsurmountable a problem as initially thought. The problem is the gas system is SOOOO critical and the military doesn't want an adjustable gas block for various loads. The guys down range aren't going to fiddle around with one. Blue ammo #2, red ammo #4 white ammo #1. FORGET IT !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 6 hours ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said: I am personally aware of the final testing on the new SDM rifle. The Creed was chosen over the 260 because the long special bullet they develped by the time it was seated in the 260 case there wasn't enough space for the required powder charge. The tradeoff however is that Creed semi-autos are Extremely finicky and difficult to run with various loads whereas the 260 will run with almost anything. Time will tell if the choice was wise. Please alleviate my ignorance: How does going to a smaller capacity case correct the problem of the bullet seating decreasing the powder capacity? Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 6,5mm Creedmoor ctg as you make the bullet longer more of the tail has to go into the ctg case. Typically these bullets have a crimp groove that is supposed to be aligned with end of the mouth of the case, as shown. I've applied a little crimp to it also, as recommended. these are 129 grs. if I make the bullet longer -- e.g. the 140 grs -- I am limited to the amount that can protrude forward of the crimp groove: the bullet has to be a bit back of the start of the rifling when I close the bolt. so -- the added length has to go into the ctg case -- not out front. if the powder charge is already taking all the space in the case -- then -- well -- I'll have to do something else, because, as the say, you can't put ten gallons in a 5 gallon can. the longer bullet -- and the 140 grs Credmoor is noted as very good for this -- has a lower co-efficient of drag -- in thus looses speed more slowly than say a .30-06 rd. This helps the 6,5mm to have a greater effective range -- even though the muzzle velocity is similar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Duffield, the shoulder and neck configuration are significantly different and allow for the long bullet and powder required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 On 9/8/2018 at 10:20 AM, Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 said: Have they looked at the .45/70 Gatling gun? Big, heavy, clumsy, and a bitch to clean. I'd love to have an 1874 model with a field carriage, caisson, and an box car full of ammo. Shooting one is a hoot but I couldn't get the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ out of my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 On 9/8/2018 at 5:54 AM, Duffield, SASS #23454 said: The M60 is NOT a good machine gun! Duffield No? I’ll go ahead disagree since I value my life and owe it to the M60 On 9/8/2018 at 6:01 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: The SAW 249 is a good one. OLG Total POS in my opinion. Hated them when I was in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said: No? I’ll go ahead disagree since I value my life and owe it to the M60 I'm glad you had one that worked. Every one that I had to use could be depended on to jam when I needed it the most. Yes, I did check my belted ammo for short and long insertions before I had to use it. Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 32 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said: I'm glad you had one that worked. Every one that I had to use could be depended on to jam when I needed it the most. Yes, I did check my belted ammo for short and long insertions before I had to use it. Duffield That’s how I felt about the SAW. Never could get one to get through a whole drum without jamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said: Big, heavy, clumsy, and a bitch to clean. I'd love to have an 1874 model with a field carriage, caisson, and an box car full of ammo. Shooting one is a hoot but I couldn't get the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ out of my mind. That would be my biggest concern also. Wonder how many patches it takes to clean one of those. And it shot that ugly black stuff also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said: Big, heavy, clumsy, and a bitch to clean. I'd love to have an 1874 model with a field carriage, caisson, and an box car full of ammo. Shooting one is a hoot but I couldn't get the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ out of my mind. And you'd have to put a hitch on your new Impala to haul it to the range... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Redwood Kid said: No? I’ll go ahead disagree since I value my life and owe it to the M60 Total POS in my opinion. Hated them when I was in. Got 2 kids that say contrary. One is a Ranger with 6 tours. Respectfully, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 57 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Got 2 kids that say contrary. One is a Ranger with 6 tours. Respectfully, OLG I was a Ranger with more than twice that many. Maybe they’ve improved the model since then. I think we’ve talked about it before. Which bat is your boy in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 17 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said: I was a Ranger with more than twice that many. Maybe they’ve improved the model since then. I think we’ve talked about it before. Which bat is your boy in? Ist-From(IIRC)2005-2012. I was incorrect about the number of tours. It was 9 in all, with several short-trips not in the count. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 32 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Ist-From(IIRC)2005-2012. I was incorrect about the number of tours. It was 9 in all, with several short-trips not in the count. OLG Outstanding. Son has good taste. 92-97 in the same barracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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