40Chev Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Anybody know when the 3 shot burst control was first introduced for the M16? Guy on another forum says he had one in VN - I was thinking they weren't available that early. Tried Google without much success other than one reference to the early 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I thought (dangerous, I know) that the 3-rnd burst capability, as a function of the selector "switch," was introduced with the forward assist. Anybody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I first saw it in the mid-80s. I'm sure it was available before then though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40Chev Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 I thought (dangerous, I know) that the 3-rnd burst capability, as a function of the selector "switch," was introduced with the forward assist. Anybody? The ones we had in 69 had the forward assist and the bird cage instead of the 3 prong (flash suppressor?). The selector was either safe, semi or full tilt boogie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 M16A2 1982 variant was the first to have the three round burst. The three round burst replaced the fully automatic feature. The conclusion was, inexperienced troops would hold the fully automatic rigger down and expend their ammunition. Under this condition, accuracy was minimal. "The U.S. Army concluded that three-shot groups provide an optimum combination of ammunition conservation, accuracy, and firepower." I have not found any thing saying they were available in VN.Doesn't mean there weren't some test units out there. But unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The ones we had in 69 had the forward assist and the bird cage instead of the 3 prong (flash suppressor?). The selector was either safe, semi or full tilt boogie. I know nothing about M-16s. What is a bird cage and forward assist? Might the 3-prong thingee be a muzzle compensator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Basically, the M16 forward assist device is a somewhat controversial feature that was added to the original M-16 rifle after its introduction into service in Viet Nam. The Forward Assist is incorporated into the upper receiver of the weapon and is a manual, spring-loaded, bolt closure device that the user strikes sharply with the heel of his hand to force the bolt forward and closed, to fully chamber a round if the bolt either hasn't done so on it's own or cannot do so because there is some debris, grease, powder residue, etc., blocking normal operation of the weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I know nothing about M-16s. What is a bird cage and forward assist? Might the 3-prong thingee be a muzzle compensator? Bird cage is the flash supressor that replaced the 3 prong style on early M16s. The 3 prong one tended to get caught in every vine and weed you walked past. It was handy st cutting the wire that held the C rat cases closed though. Cat answered the forward assist query. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 thankee gentlemen. Follow up question: Why was the forward assist controversial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 thankee gentlemen. Follow up question: Why was the forward assist controversial? :-) :-) :-) Where should I start? With my pard, Jim Britton and his pal xxxxx Stoner testing one of the original prototype weapons at a range near Newport Beach in Southern California for the Stoner kid's dad, Eugene Stoner (a Lockheed Engineer) by running 20k rounds through the weapon? How about the test ammo having a nice and clean burning propellant and the combat ammo furnished with the original deployments of the weapon containing nasty propellant that caused the weapon to fail by dirtying up the gas tube and the action. There were many early incidents of debris related failures and ammo related failures along with failures on the part of the GI to properly maintain his weapon. The military decided the fix was the Forward Assist. Eugene Stoner didn't like the idea, but lost the coin toss. :-) ;-) There's probably a ton of books and articles out there addressing all this, and I'm too weary to get too deep into it. The military was fighting the fire that was burning its ass the hottest at the time and the Forward Assist fix was easy to point to showing they had fixed what had become an embarrassing and political issue. I think you get the idea. Seriously, a little query should turn up some Eugene Stoner information. Cat Brules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I used the M-16 in the mid-80s and the forward assist was still a hot button issue. Some of our senior cadre were Vietnam vets who remember the issues that Cat discussed. Here is the core of the problem, and it still exists to this day... If you have a round that doesn't fully seat in the chamber, the forward assist is there to theoretically enable you to push the bolt forward into battery so the round can be fired. In reality, there are actually two possible outcomes if you use the forward assist in that manner. First, it might work as intended, seat the round, and you go on about your business of firing the weapon. Second, it might push a round into a compromised space (dirt in chamber, dented case, etc.) and still not fully seat the round. Then you've taken a bad situation and made it worse to the point that you probably need a cleaning rod to push everything backwards and then keep shooting. This was a very bad outcome, especially in the middle of hostilities. Fortunately, most of the original issues discussed earlier had been fixed by my time and I found the M-16 to be a very reliable weapon. I still remember the "immediate action drill" we were taught to execute in the event of a weapon malfunction. It was known as SPORT. Slap the magazine bottom to ensure it was fully seated. (Every hiccup I saw was due to a magazine issue.) Pull back the charging handle. Observe the chamber to make sure there's no debris or other issues. Release the charging handle to Return the bolt forward. Tap the forward assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 M16A2 introduced early/mid 1980's. Three shot burst came in with the other A2 mods, longer stock, thicker barrel, 1/7 twist etc. Try Wikpedia, M16A2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeb Stuart #65654 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 In my experience, the forward assist only makes a small problem larger. Every time I've seen it used it just caused the round to become wedged tighter into the chamber. If that happened, we were taught to clear it by slamming the butt down on a hard surface while pulling down on the charging handle. This action will extract the round every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Weren't many "hard surfaces" in rice patties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Weren't many "hard surfaces" in rice patties. Lieutenant's head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. John Campbell, SASS #58165 Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Lieutenant's head? No, similar to newborn babies, 2nd Lieutenants still have soft spots on their heads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Howdy, Slamming a rifle down on a hard surface. Now I have something to look forward to, thanks. Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I woodn't dooo that! An issue weapon, maybe..... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.