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Captain Bill Burt

Stage Conventions and Stage Writing

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For discussion:

 

Stage conventions state "Shooters may not start a stage with ammunition in hand." ROI page 14.

 

If the stage instructions say "Shooter starts with one hand on shotgun" may the shooter have his other hand on his shotgun shells while they're still in their loops? Could an argument be made that the same definition for 'in hand' for pistols applies to ammo?

 

If there isn't a written rule for this would it be better as a stage writer to state where the other hand has to/can be?

 

 

 

 

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This is the wire, an argument could be made by anyone for anything.

 

Generally no, touching ammo in loops means that if you took your hand away the ammo would stay in the loops, Hanging on to the ammo and having the ammo touching loops isn't the same thing.

 

edit, and no, I can't quote a rule or stage convention that says that, just stating my opinion based on my experience and observation. Most often it would be clarified in the PM walk thru as to what was allowed along those lines.

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Stage conventions state that absent instructions to the contrary a shooter may not be touching guns. I couldn't find anything like that about ammo. I'm not saying either of you are wrong, I'm just exploring. I've heard it said (fairly often) that once the stage instructions tell you to do something like touch a gun or hold a bottle, what you do with the other hand is up to the shooter, that also isn't in the rules, at least not that I can find.

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Part of the rational of the stage conventions was to help clarify instructions and provide standardization.

 

I too have heard folks say that if you have ANY stated start position, that that gives the freedom to do anything they want.

But I think that is against the intent of the stage conventions. Now I know, no one likes the word intent, but we are not trying to "read the stage writer's mind" with the stage conventions.

 

Otherwise, we would need to write a short book on any start position that varies from the SASS standard start. One hand on gun, standing fully erect, the other hand at your side, hat on your head, only touching one gun, no running or jumping, etc, etc.

 

Back in the day, the guidance was that, "if you had to ask, the answer was probably no." That has gone by the wayside, probably more than it should.

 

Hopefully Palewolf, et all will step in.

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No, other than the way I understand convention #5. I would consider ammo being gripped in the belt in hand. Not sure if there has been a clarification on this.

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Again, I'm not trying to push the limits or start an argument, just better understand the rules.

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Poor stage writing by only one hand touching SG.

 

Just have shooter use both hands touching and thus skip this gamey stuff.

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.

You may not like it but it is not poor stage writing. Not sure what that has to do with being gamey.

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Bottom line is I let an instruction like that get used at our last match. Guess I need to pay more attention when I"m proofreading the stages.

 

I'm wondering if the resulting questions are covered in the rules as written or if I should have asked our stage writer to clarify. Some said it meant the other hand can be anywhere other than touching ammo and others said you could be touching ammo but it still needed to be in the loops. My take away is next time state where the other hand will be.

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cant touch ammo unless stage says you can, as per conventions,,,,

 

yes the stage writer shud have clarified it, at least on the walk thru....

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cant touch ammo unless stage says you can, as per conventions,,,,

 

yes the stage writer shud have clarified it, at least on the walk thru....

Stage conventions don't say you can't touch ammo. They say you can't start with ammo in hand or with hands touching guns.

 

Touching your pistols isn't considered in hand, they have to be out of the holster for that. So if those are meant to be the same shouldn't it say you can't start with hands touching ammo?

 

The failure was on my part, not the stage writers. I should have caught it on the proof read or the walk through and I missed it.

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A starting position given only nullifies the default position.

 

I like that statement. So the start instruction includes only the variance from the default position - not carte blanche for other changes.

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I like that statement. So the start instruction includes only the variance from the default position - not carte blanche for other changes.

I like that too. But even so, does the no ammo in hand convention mean not touching it, or not holding it?

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By the way, thanks for bringing this up as I've seen more and more questions about it.

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You're welcome! I like discussing things like this, I generally end up with a better understanding when it's over with.

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no touching either!

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You know I respect you Purdy Boy, and I'm happy to accept that as the rule, but it's not what the book says. And the book does seem to differentiate between touching and in hand. Just saying ;)

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sigh,,,,but that's what it means!! oh well,,,, guess the horse will stand in front of the trough without drinking this time,,,lol

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LOL, I'm prepared to drink, but I can see validity in a competitor saying if they meant 'not touching', why say' not in hand'?

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As it was explained to me by a member of the ROC. "a starting position is sass default except what is specifically covered by the starting position"

If it's hands on hat" everything reverts to sass default except hands

 

The only exception is "gun in hand aimed at target" this allows shooter to start in a "shooting" stance.

 

By strict interpretation, one hand touching shotgun means the shooter is standing fully erect, one hand on shotgun, the other hand would be relaxed at side per sass default.

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As it was explained to me by a member of the ROC. "a starting position is sass default except what is specifically covered by the starting position"

If it's hands on hat" everything reverts to sass default except hands

 

The only exception is "gun in hand aimed at target" this allows shooter to start in a "shooting" stance.

 

By strict interpretation, one hand touching shotgun means the shooter is standing fully erect, one hand on shotgun, the other hand would be relaxed at side per sass default.

That makes sense.

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As it was explained to me by a member of the ROC. "a starting position is sass default except what is specifically covered by the starting position"

If it's hands on hat" everything reverts to sass default except hands

 

The only exception is "gun in hand aimed at target" this allows shooter to start in a "shooting" stance.

 

By strict interpretation, one hand touching shotgun means the shooter is standing fully erect, one hand on shotgun, the other hand would be relaxed at side per sass default.

and that I've never heard.......oh well

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sometimes I dunt wanna drink eethur!!!

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There are a few professional gamers that shoot down yore way Capt. Bill....if you don't spell it out there's no telling what can be accomplished. I'm taking lessons from them too ;):D

 

Kajun

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As it was explained to me by a member of the ROC. "a starting position is SASS default except what is specifically covered by the starting position"

If it's hands on hat" everything reverts to sass default except hands

 

The only exception is "gun in hand aimed at target" this allows shooter to start in a "shooting" stance.

 

By strict interpretation, one hand touching shotgun means the shooter is standing fully erect, one hand on shotgun, the other hand would be relaxed at side per sass default.

 

Re: Convention #9...

9. If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered and hands at the side, not touching any firearm.

 

Example: Start position is seated on barstool.

Would specifying a "start position" other than the default "standing upright" mean that the shooter may then have revolver(s) out, cocked & pointed at the first target(s) just because it isn't specifically prohibited?

Of course not!

The conventions ALL apply other than the exception...the rest of the statement is still in effect...same as all of the others that are not "otherwise directed" in the stage instructions.

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Stage Conventions, or standard range behaviors, are a list of practices every shooter is expected to know and follow on every stage. These stage conventions should be followed in all SASS matches unless otherwise directed in stage descriptions.

 

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Re: Convention #9...

9. If no starting position is given, the shooter shall stand upright with revolvers holstered and hands at the side, not touching any firearm.

 

Example: Start position is seated on barstool.

Would specifying a "start position" other than the default "standing upright" mean that the shooter may then have revolver(s) out, cocked & pointed at the first target(s) just because it isn't specifically prohibited?

Of course not!

The conventions ALL apply other than the exception...the rest of the statement is still in effect...same as all of the others that are not "otherwise directed" in the stage instructions.

I think your agreeing with me here. In the barstool example, the shooter would start sitting upright with their hands relaxed at sides. The only thing deviating from sass default is sitting not standing correct???

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I think your agreeing with me here. In the barstool example, the shooter would start sitting upright with their hands relaxed at sides. The only thing deviating from sass default is sitting not standing correct???

 

YES...I am...& that would be correct.

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I had a shooter argue the point some time ago that the stage instruction said hand(s) on pistol(s) meant they could pull the pistol up in the holster just so long as the muzzle did not clear leather.

He didn't like the word NO.

I sent him to the Match Director and told him to get get permission to do what he wanted.

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YES...I am...& that would be correct.

Interesting. I recall this being discussed on the wire years back. You and BJT explained to me that "start in the doorway" meant hands by side in the doorway. "Start standing in the doorway" meant the shooter could have their hands on their pistols because "standing" was a starting position. You told me that if the stage writer didn't want hands on pistols when they have a starting position then it needed to be included in the stage description.

 

Has that now changed?

 

Stan

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