Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Captain Bill Burt

Stage Conventions and Stage Writing

Recommended Posts

Interesting. I recall this being discussed on the wire years back. You and BJT explained to me that "start in the doorway" meant hands by side in the doorway. "Start standing in the doorway" meant the shooter could have their hands on their pistols because "standing" was a starting position. You told me that if the stage writer didn't want hands on pistols when they have a starting position then it needed to be included in the stage description.

 

Has that now changed?

 

Stan

 

Yes...because of the "if it doesn't say I can't, then I can" abuse of the original intent of the Conventions (consistency throughout a match); resulting in "free-style" start positions for some more lenient posses vs. those run by a PM who wouldn't allow it.

 

BTW - a number of Conventions were removed due to the fact that they could NOT be overridden (over-written?) by stage instructions...moving with a cocked/loaded firearm, for example, as were prohibitions against breaking the 170 & tolerating interpersonal conflicts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about this: Start: standing behind bale 1 or bale 2 shotgun in hand (may hold shotgun in one hand with other hand on ammo)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about this: Start: standing behind bale 1 or bale 2 shotgun in hand (may hold shotgun in one hand with other hand on ammo)

Starting instructions would in that case dictate you would stand behind either bale, one hand holding shotgun, the other on ammo. However 1 posse marshal might "interpret" that as rounds in shotgun loops, hands touching them, another might "interpret" that as shotgun in shoulder, rounds in hand ready to load.

 

Your "local regular" shooters might be used to what you mean, but what about an out of towner at your match, of if one of your shooters comes to my match, or WR/EOT/a divisional ?? It's best to be as specific as possible when devianting from default.

 

Start standing behind bale 1 or bale 2 one hand holding shotgun, the other hand touching shells in belt or bandoleer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know I respect you Purdy Boy, and I'm happy to accept that as the rule, but it's not what the book says. And the book does seem to differentiate between touching and in hand. Just saying ;)

the default start position is hands at side, not touching guns or ammo. Ergo, if the stage instructions nullify this, it's only nullified to the extent of the instruction. If the instruction only provides nullification for one hand, the other should remain at side, not touching gun or ammo. That's my interpretation.

 

We often vary the standard start position. I've seen things "...like shotgun and ammo in hand...", that allows the shooter to hold the shotgun wherever they'd like, with the ammo anywhere but in the chamber. Or, "...rifle at the ready..." Got my fill of "...hands on hat..." today. :P:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Yes...because of the "if it doesn't say I can't, then I can" abuse of the original intent of the Conventions (consistency throughout a match); resulting in "free-style" start positions for some more lenient posses vs. those run by a PM who wouldn't allow it.

 

BTW - a number of Conventions were removed due to the fact that they could NOT be overridden (over-written?) by stage instructions...moving with a cocked/loaded firearm, for example, as were prohibitions against breaking the 170 & tolerating interpersonal conflicts.

Ok. When was this decided? I try to stay pretty up to date and don't recall this change obviously.

 

 

 

Stan

 

Stan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Btt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok. When was this decided? I try to stay pretty up to date and don't recall this change obviously.

 

 

 

Stan

 

Stan

Double that......not complaining but want to make sure we are ALL on the same page. Right now not only are we not on the same page.......many of us don't even have the same book.......lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

another grey area that is different in different parts of the country.....

 

my take always was if you said 'hands on hat" it released the rest of the conventions, ie standing erect was no longer in play...

 

now you still cudn't have hands touching ammo,,,,unless it said you cud...

 

just saying,,,, it's nice to hear others are in the same boat I am!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somewhat OT…

 

When I started this game a well-respected shooter instructed me thusly: If the stage states “start with shotgun in hand, both hands on shotgun”, grasp the wrist of the shotgun (97) with your right hand and place your left hand flat over the upward facing ejection port, as that puts your left hand closer to your SG shells/belt.

 

I put that into practice – for years. Then, at a state match the TO informed me that “both hands on shotgun” meant “one hand on the butt stock and one hand on the forearm”. So I slid my hand up so it was laying on the forearm (ejection port still facing up). TO said, “No. You have to be grasping the forearm, like when you shoot it.”

 

So I did so, because it just wasn’t that much of a deal. But it’s another example of people making it up as they go just because that’s their interpretation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't it be nice if all stage writers truly attempted to write their stages 'precise', 'concise', and 'to-the-point'. Where, even a shooter from another decipline (someone who knows a bit about firearms) after reading the stage description, would totally understand what to do, how to stand/start,where to shoot from, where to discard firearms, round count, and in what order. As well, what variations are acceptable (r-l or l-r, short cuts are allowed, any gun any order, etc)In other words, no quessing, no presuming, no gray areas. All possible questions are answered in the reading, or SASS stage convention.

 

I know, wishful thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somewhat OT…

 

When I started this game a well-respected shooter instructed me thusly: If the stage states “start with shotgun in hand, both hands on shotgun”, grasp the wrist of the shotgun (97) with your right hand and place your left hand flat over the upward facing ejection port, as that puts your left hand closer to your SG shells/belt.

 

I put that into practice – for years. Then, at a state match the TO informed me that “both hands on shotgun” meant “one hand on the butt stock and one hand on the forearm”. So I slid my hand up so it was laying on the forearm (ejection port still facing up). TO said, “No. You have to be grasping the forearm, like when you shoot it.”

 

So I did so, because it just wasn’t that much of a deal. But it’s another example of people making it up as they go just because that’s their interpretation.

Shotgun in hands around here means you can have SG shouldered, aimed, and the hair on your hairy knuckles brushing somewhere on the SG butt, and directly over shells you will be pulling. Or anything else that the imagination can think of to get the off hand closer to shells.

 

Just saying

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't it be nice if all stage writers truly attempted to write their stages 'precise', 'concise', and 'to-the-point'. Where, even a shooter from another decipline (someone who knows a bit about firearms) after reading the stage description, would totally understand what to do, how to stand/start,where to shoot from, where to discard firearms, round count, and in what order. As well, what variations are acceptable (r-l or l-r, short cuts are allowed, any gun any order, etc)In other words, no quessing, no presuming, no gray areas. All possible questions are answered in the reading, or SASS stage convention.

 

I know, wishful thinking.

And then when they do, they get accused of being frustrated novelists and get criticized for being control freaks who don't give shooters any flexibility or options. Other than that, it's a great job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clearly the default position needs to be changed to hands on pistols, shotgun shells in hand touching both long guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clearly the default position needs to be changed to hands on pistols, shotgun shells in hand touching both long guns.

Just how many hands do you have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clearly the default position needs to be changed to hands on pistols, shotgun shells in hand touching both long guns.

Just how many hands do you have?

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And then when they do, they get accused of being frustrated novelists and get criticized for being control freaks who don't give shooters any flexibility or options. Other than that, it's a great job.

 

Seeing as how you already know I'm a complainer I'd be first in line making those criticisms. For instance, "Make rifle safe" to me is perfectly acceptable. Different shooters have different preferences as to where/how they safe their guns. As long as I'm putting it somewhere safe, why do stage writers feel they have to prescribe the exact spot? (Yes, there are obviously some instances where that's necessary for safety concerns, but more often than not that's not the case) Winter Range is the absolute best example of this. "Make rifle safe" means exactly that, just put it somewhere that's safe and within SASS rules. Lay it down at the rifle shooting position, lay it down at the next shooting position, stand it up, whatever, as long as it's safe you're fine. Adds great variety to stages and makes them that much more fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't it be nice if all stage writers truly attempted to write their stages 'precise', 'concise', and 'to-the-point'. Where, even a shooter from another decipline (someone who knows a bit about firearms) after reading the stage description, would totally understand what to do, how to stand/start,where to shoot from, where to discard firearms, round count, and in what order. As well, what variations are acceptable (r-l or l-r, short cuts are allowed, any gun any order, etc)In other words, no quessing, no presuming, no gray areas. All possible questions are answered in the reading, or SASS stage convention.

 

I know, wishful thinking.

Actually I like a mix.....Sometimes I like to tell the shooters exactly what I want and other times I like to give the shooters some flexibility, especially if they KNOW the rules.

 

(or at least thought they knew the rules......)

 

For example......I might write....."start in the doorway" which to me meant default position per the stage instructions.

 

I might write......"start in the doorway with hands on both sides of the door frame at least shoulder high" which I think is pretty cut and dried as to what I want.

 

I might write......"start standing in the doorway" which to me meant that the shooter could have their hands ON their holstered pistols because a starting position (Standing) was given.

 

I don't see anything wrong with giving some freedom sometimes.......it's just like anything else life......Too much of any one thing is never good.

 

Stan

 

PS....I did a search...You and I had almost the exact same conversation in 2013.....LOL.....except now I think I may be wrong about what the stage convention means.

 

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=200191&page=2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Folks do differ.

 

I think that most want to have fun and have some variety of choice.

 

Some folks need to be told what to do - or they go over the top.

 

Others want to be told what to do - so little or know creative thought required.

That may be more relaxing or comfortable for them.

 

Not trying to criticize so much as merely observing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seeing as how you already know I'm a complainer I'd be first in line making those criticisms. For instance, "Make rifle safe" to me is perfectly acceptable. Different shooters have different preferences as to where/how they safe their guns. As long as I'm putting it somewhere safe, why do stage writers feel they have to prescribe the exact spot? (Yes, there are obviously some instances where that's necessary for safety concerns, but more often than not that's not the case) Winter Range is the absolute best example of this. "Make rifle safe" means exactly that, just put it somewhere that's safe and within SASS rules. Lay it down at the rifle shooting position, lay it down at the next shooting position, stand it up, whatever, as long as it's safe you're fine. Adds great variety to stages and makes them that much more fun.

Last weekend, we used plywood horse for both rifle and SG. Stage description said LG's started in cradles and ended in cradles. As we often would say, go ahead and try to restage anywhere you want and we will see how that works for ya....a 'P'.

 

There were other stages you could restage any safe way you wanted. Our stage writers know the difference, and most of the time it isn't an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

unless you must make it safe somewhere in particular,,,, why even say, "make it safe'? you know you gotta!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

unless you must make it safe somewhere in particular,,,, why even say, "make it safe'? you know you gotta!

+1!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

unless you must make it safe somewhere in particular,,,, why even say, "make it safe'? you know you gotta!

Statement is more for the benefit to newer shooters or unsure of rules shooter, or out of towners that they can take gun to next shooting position. A curdious thingy and cuts down on questions after stage reading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I like a mix.....Sometimes I like to tell the shooters exactly what I want and other times I like to give the shooters some flexibility, especially if they KNOW the rules.

 

(or at least thought they knew the rules......)

 

For example......I might write....."start in the doorway" which to me meant default position per the stage instructions.

 

I might write......"start in the doorway with hands on both sides of the door frame at least shoulder high" which I think is pretty cut and dried as to what I want.

 

I might write......"start standing in the doorway" which to me meant that the shooter could have their hands ON their holstered pistols because a starting position (Standing) was given.

 

I don't see anything wrong with giving some freedom sometimes.......it's just like anything else life......Too much of any one thing is never good.

 

Stan

 

PS....I did a search...You and I had almost the exact same conversation in 2013.....LOL.....except now I think I may be wrong about what the stage convention means.

 

http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=200191&page=2

At a monthly shoot, try a stage where description says: any gun ,shot in any order, rifle can be last and have two or more shooting positions. The usual sweeps. Start at some neutral position where hand position is not critical and they must move to first shooting position. Watch the thinking gears grind

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

unless you must make it safe somewhere in particular,,,, why even say, "make it safe'? you know you gotta!

I have found that those two short words eliminate a lot of confusion. Some people are under the impression that if not told where to restage a long gun that it must go back to where it came from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At a monthly shoot, try a stage where description says: any gun ,shot in any order, rifle can be last and have two or more shooting positions. The usual sweeps. Start at some neutral position where hand position is not critical and they must move to first shooting position. Watch the thinking gears grind

Better yet, have ONE big target for all three guns, ONE shooting position and any order on the firearms. You'll be bombarded with questions!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Better yet, have ONE big target for all three guns, ONE shooting position and any order on the firearms. You'll be bombarded with questions!

. Like, what ya do with forth gun? LOL, but I know your 'intent'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Starting instructions would in that case dictate you would stand behind either bale, one hand holding shotgun, the other on ammo. However 1 posse marshal might "interpret" that as rounds in shotgun loops, hands touching them, another might "interpret" that as shotgun in shoulder, rounds in hand ready to load.

 

Your "local regular" shooters might be used to what you mean, but what about an out of towner at your match, of if one of your shooters comes to my match, or WR/EOT/a divisional ?? It's best to be as specific as possible when devianting from default.

 

Start standing behind bale 1 or bale 2 one hand holding shotgun, the other hand touching shells in belt or bandoleer

 

I think I'm OK here. The instruction says hand on ammo, not ammo in hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Seeing as how you already know I'm a complainer I'd be first in line making those criticisms. For instance, "Make rifle safe" to me is perfectly acceptable. Different shooters have different preferences as to where/how they safe their guns. As long as I'm putting it somewhere safe, why do stage writers feel they have to prescribe the exact spot? (Yes, there are obviously some instances where that's necessary for safety concerns, but more often than not that's not the case) Winter Range is the absolute best example of this. "Make rifle safe" means exactly that, just put it somewhere that's safe and within SASS rules. Lay it down at the rifle shooting position, lay it down at the next shooting position, stand it up, whatever, as long as it's safe you're fine. Adds great variety to stages and makes them that much more fun.

+1 and that's in the conventions as well.....and IMO in there for continuity across the fruited plains.. When you go somewhere and they remove them in an attempt to play Simon Sez it just throws a monkey wrench in the works and adds confusion.

 

Obviously some stages require you to do certain things for safety or down range movement.....but that is obvious and doesn't cause any issues. Doing it just because I told ya' so.........not so much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just how many hands do you have?

Two just like normal humans. Why, what have you heard?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.