PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 PaleWolfe the contour on the rear of the bolt extension does not change from that of a stock extension this was presented to Hipshot to be approved but was told there was no need to be approved due to the fact it was a internal modification and it could not be seen while the firearm was at rest (action closed ) provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed. Thanks for that confirmation. PWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creek County Kid Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 no problem thanks for asking we want to be sass compliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creek County Kid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Also the modification works on the new Miruko 73 !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Polish Pistolero Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 I do want to see the video of the mod! I hope a close up of the rear of the bolt when the action is open. I'm glad it is basically approved but I know people will contest it if the firing pin is visible at all! I wouldn't but some overzealous TG at a match will! I guarantee it! ( no name mentioned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Polish Pistolero Posted January 2, 2016 Author Share Posted January 2, 2016 A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I do want to see the video of the mod! I hope a close up of the rear of the bolt when the action is open. I'm glad it is basically approved but I know people will contest it if the firing pin is visible at all! I wouldn't but some overzealous TG at a match will! I guarantee it! ( no name mentioned) I accept the statement that this item has been submitted, and that a member of the WB has said it was acceptable. However, you are dead on Pard. If the firing pin is visible when the gun is at rest, then it will and ought to be challenged. One of the biggest problems that the ROC faced when I was there was the rampant proliferation of equipment mods and the "Anything Goes" attitude of far too many people. If someone sees a mod, how are they suppose to know that it has been approved? They can either just let it slide or they can ask. That, is not being Overzealous, it is just doing the job. From what I have seen of this, I want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creek County Kid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I will try and have the video up before the end of the day ! I will post on here when I get it up !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 If the future editions of the Chronicle spread slowly around the country like this one things could get interesting. A tech article could get beaten to death and erroneous assumptions made before most people have even had a chance to read the article. I'm working on one or two articles for the next print edition. Hopefully people will find those as interesting as this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toranado, SASS # 58447 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 The "lightning rod" bolt modification from a few years ago could not be seen with the action closed, so does this "ruling" make the lightning rod an acceptable modification?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 The "lightning rod" bolt modification from a few years ago could not be seen with the action closed, so does this "ruling" make the lightning rod an acceptable modification?? NO. That modification is specifically listed as NOT LEGAL in the SHB. REF: p.8 (also see post #31) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Stock firing pin extension on top. And the infamous lightning rod below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 But officer, he said that she said that they meant......... Press hard, the 3rd copy is yours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toranado, SASS # 58447 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 NO. That modification is specifically listed as NOT LEGAL in the SHB. REF: p.8 (also see post #31) I do get that we have a rule now, but when it was rejected I thought the discussion was it was considered and "external mod" because it could be visible when the gun WAS open, and the fact it wasn't when closed was irrelevant. The quote that it was approved because it was NOT external because could not be seen when closed seemed to me to be a change in how the approval methodology was being applied Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 I do get that we have a rule now, but when it was rejected I thought the discussion was it was considered and "external mod" because it could be visible when the gun WAS open, and the fact it wasn't when closed was irrelevant. The quote that it was approved because it was NOT external because could not be seen when closed seemed to me to be a change in how the approval methodology was being applied REF also: ALL FIREARMS • All firearms must be designed to fire by use of an impact mechanism such as required by centerfire primers, rimfire primers, or percussion caps. All other firing mechanisms are illegal. • Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here. SHB p.4 Since the "lightning rod" roller modification is specifically listed as ILLEGAL, it doesn't matter whether it is visible with the action closed or not. This has been in the "SASS Firearms Covenants" since it was first discussed ten years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Fire, SASS 10064 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 PaleWolf: Is this full length firing pin modification ( as offered by Creek Country Kid) SASS legal today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 PaleWolf: Is this full length firing pin modification ( as offered by Creek Country Kid) SASS legal today? REF: Post #34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toranado, SASS # 58447 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 REF also: SHB p.4 Since the "lightning rod" roller modification is specifically listed as ILLEGAL, it doesn't matter whether it is visible with the action closed or not. This has been in the "SASS Firearms Covenants" since it was first discussed ten years ago. As I stated in previous note, I fully agree that there is a rule now and that rule was put in AFTER the Lightning rod was marketed and out. What I was pointing out was the reason that I read to outlaw and to create the rule was because it was exposed when the action was open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creek County Kid Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 https://www.facebook.com/The-Gun-Shop-806778342705192/ Ok here is a link to some more pictures that I just uploaded to our facebook page !! I will have a video this Wednesday on the install and other questions about the modification !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Foot Luke Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 PaleWolfe the contour on the rear of the bolt extension does not change from that of a stock extension this was presented to Hipshot to be approved but was told there was no need to be approved due to the fact it was a internal modification and it could not be seen while the firearm was at rest (action closed ) provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed. Sometimes I don't catch on as fast as other more knowledgeable shooters. What does "at rest (action closed)" mean? Could action closed with a live round in the chamber also be included in the definition of "at rest?" With action closed on a live round, doesn't the firing pin protrude outside of the bolt extension? Larsen's nicely written article includes a photo of this (photo 58). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creek County Kid Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 not any more we have removed the spring from the package which eliminated the pin from protruding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Sometimes I don't catch on as fast as other more knowledgeable shooters. What does "at rest (action closed)" mean? Could action closed with a live round in the chamber also be included in the definition of "at rest?" With action closed on a live round, doesn't the firing pin protrude outside of the bolt extension? Larsen's nicely written article includes a photo of this (photo 58). Based on the article in the CC (mine came yesterday), when a live round is in the chamber and the bolt is closed, the firing pin WILL protrude from the rear of the extension. Think of the one piece firing pin as a piece of rod. the mod requires the firing pin extension to be pinned to the bolt. that assembly now has a total length. the new one piece firing pin has a length that is probably something like .035" longer than the total length of the bolt/extension assembly. it will either protrude from the bolt face (after striking a primer or with the chamber empty) by that .035 or it will protrude from the now pinned extrension at the back of the rifle where you can see it by .035 (when a live primer/snap cap is in the chamber.) and the bolt is closed. Since the firing pin extension is now pinned to the bolt, it no longer moves. only the firing pin moves, reducing the total mass of moving parts needed to set off a primer to nothing more than a length of rod and a collar. less mass means less spring tension needed and we all know less spring tension means smoother actions. It's quite ingenious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I just received the CC yesterday. The 5's turned into 8's. 405-615-4577 Got questions? give me a call Thanks RCD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I just received the CC yesterday. The 5's turned into 8's. 405-615-4577 Got questions? give me a call Thanks RCD I still don't have my copy of the CC. Was the email address in there and was it correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I didn't think one piece firing pins was something new? There's a couple of smiths that's done them for at least 10 years or so. I've never seen an advantage of a one piece firing pin. I always used a firing pin just for big matches. It's a pretty cheap insurance policy. This particular design seems to have two sharp angles where a break is more likely to occur rather than just one like the factory set up. I guess if I thought there was a drastic need for a one piece firing pin I'd do an insert in the front of the firing pin extension that was a gradual taper with no shoulder where a break is more likely to occur. It would take some machining inside the bolt, but once you had the tooling made it wouildn't be that big of deal. I'd also make it out of shock absorbing steel like S1 or S4. (I think that is what it is called) Of course with everyone flailing away on 8 yard rifle targets you would creat more mass slapping back and fourth which could be blamed for an OOB discharge from a poorly set up rifle or bad ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697 Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 I still don't have my copy of the CC. Was the email address in there and was it correct? Larsen, The email is correct. Great job on the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creek County Kid Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Colt the sharp parts on the modification that I think your talking about is a sleeve notice the set screw and A2 if drawn properly has good shock absorbing properties and we have experience heat treating tool steel for quite some time and have never had a problem with any of our modifications using A2 tool steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McAllister Posted January 3, 2016 Share Posted January 3, 2016 Colt the sharp parts on the modification that I think your talking about is a sleeve notice the set screw and A2 if drawn properly has good shock absorbing properties and we have experience heat treating tool steel for quite some time and have never had a problem with any of our modifications using A2 tool steel. I see it now. It looks like a cut to pin it in the firing pin extension in the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Got my CC yesterday & read thru the article & all the pics, very interesting. I'm still a "little" uneasy with the idea of using a live primer to push the firing pin back into the bolt....... But we'll see..... "proof is in the pudding" as they say. As the article states, one of the benefits of the J&J one piece pin is being able to "significantly" reduce the amount of mainspring pressure needed to reliably set off primers. OK I can see that.... But I do have One question for RCD or LEP Have you measured the amount of pull required on the lever needed to cycle a well tuned '73 using this system ????? I know that using my RCBS trigger gauge something around 3 lbs of pull is required to fully open a well tuned & short stroked '73 or '66 Uberti without the J&J setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ T. Sites Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Also the modification works on the new Miruko 73 !!! Do you have a lighten main spring to go with the one piece firing pin for the Miroku 73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creek County Kid Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 We do not have a aftermarket main spring. The last one that we put the one piece in we ground the stock main spring down I don't know if Roy's Creek Dan has some or Slick Mclade ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 We do not have a aftermarket main spring. The last one that we put the one piece in we ground the stock main spring down I don't know if Roy's Creek Dan has some or Slick Mclade ? If anone is doing this mod on a Miroku Winchester and intends to grind down the stock mainspring they need to be VERY careful. The Winchester spring has much less arch that the Uberti spring and will quickly go from having tension to having little or no tension with very little grinding. And, it isn't easy getting replacement Winchester mainsprings if they are ruined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I'm still a "little" uneasy with the idea of using a live primer to push the firing pin back into the bolt....... I agree Sam. It seems like a light spring on the front side of the adjustable sleeve would be a safer setup.... however, doing so would force the firing pin to protrude out the back of the extension. I don't know if that would make it visible at rest or not. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I have tested the lever pull weight and it is 2lbs 1.7oz avg. The hammer pull weight is 2lbs 0.9oz avg. This is my competition rifle, thousands of rounds and no misfires. It could be lighter but I don't think I could feel the difference and I trust this setting. I feel everyone is interested in being able to lighten the main spring, and rightly so. But the system was developed to fix an older worn out rifle that had way to much play in the bolt and firing pin extension due to wear and tear not just in the bolt but the rifle itself. Making the bolt and the extension solid made the old rifle work great and as a added plus we found out you didn't need as much spring to get consistent primer ignition. Also people, as Larsen pointed out, just can't get used to a light spring pushing the firing pin against the primer. So almost every firing pin we have put out there is now running without the spring (free floating pin ) and they still work great. And I have Baikal springs. Give me a call. RCD Got my CC yesterday & read thru the article & all the pics, very interesting. I'm still a "little" uneasy with the idea of using a live primer to push the firing pin back into the bolt....... But we'll see..... "proof is in the pudding" as they say. As the article states, one of the benefits of the J&J one piece pin is being able to "significantly" reduce the amount of mainspring pressure needed to reliably set off primers. OK I can see that.... But I do have One question for RCD or LEP Have you measured the amount of pull required on the lever needed to cycle a well tuned '73 using this system ????? I know that using my RCBS trigger gauge something around 3 lbs of pull is required to fully open a well tuned & short stroked '73 or '66 Uberti without the J&J setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 The new part looks interesting, but this cowboy is going to take a wait and see how this works out for those pioneers who install this modification. (we all know what pioneers are). The other question this brings up in my mind is How Much Does This Cost???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I agree Sam. It seems like a light spring on the front side of the adjustable sleeve would be a safer setup.... however, doing so would force the firing pin to protrude out the back of the extension. I don't know if that would make it visible at rest or not. Snakebite Snakebite The first rifle that was fitted with the new firing pin was mounted in a vice and with a empty case with a live primer in the chamber the lever was slammed, hit with a bat, made to go closed as fast as possible for hours. Not once was the primer ignited or even dented. But we understand peoples worries and most of the pins now run with out the spring letting the pin free float. Next batch will not even have a spring. RCD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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