Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Shot a 2-day match this weekend with my .44 cal 1860 Pietta Sheriffs. My problem is that the caps split after firing and become partially dislodged as the cylinder rotates. None fall back into the action, but they do bind between the recoil shield and cylinder, making pulling the hammer back extremely difficult between shots. While better than factory nipples where unfired caps fall off, it's really frustrating and has been a persistent issue since installing them. Here's the data: * Pistols have hammer notches filled with JB Weld * Slix Shot nipples * #10 Remmie Caps * .454 balls over BP filled with a 21 gr spout * I use a push stick to firmly seat caps after initial seating with a snail capper I know there are those who've had success with these nipples, but so far I'm unimpressed. Perhaps it's an Uberti vs Pietta thing as the Uberti owners like them. I've no feedback from Pietta owners. I'd like to try Tresos, but they appear to be unavailable. Thoughts and recommendations appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 If you can't find Tresos try Track of the Wolf. Their new nipples have the same size flash holes as Tresos. They are basically stainless steel Tresos. When they refer to Ampco nipples they are referring to Treso. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1 P.S. What kind of mainspring are you using? If you went to a lightened mainspring that might be part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Sorry for your troubles Slim, I have six or seven pair of Pietta Cap Guns and have not yet had the problem you describe. My guns are equipped with Cap Rakes with a large notch to clear the hammer channel post. Upon firing, the caps split in several laces but by and large stay on the nips. Have to pull em off at the ULT. In a nutshell, I've had positively great result with SlixShot. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 If you can't find Tresos try Track of the Wolf. Their new nipples have the same size flash holes as Tresos. They are basically stainless steel Tresos. When they refer to Ampco nipples they are referring to Treso. http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/807/1 P.S. What kind of mainspring are you using? If you went to a lightened mainspring that might be part of the problem. Thanks, Larsen. there are two lengths available at .300 and .319. Which is recommended? Also, I see they're for #11 CCI caps. Does that make my supply of 1,500 #10 Remmies useless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I ordered some but forgot what size I ordered. Give them a call. The owner is real friendly and will be able to tell you what you need. I used Remington 10s on mine and they worked fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingers McGee Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I know there are those who've had success with these nipples, but so far I'm unimpressed. Perhaps it's an Uberti vs Pietta thing as the Uberti owners like them. I've no feedback from Pietta owners. I'd like to try Tresos, but they appear to be unavailable. Slim, I have a pair of Pietta 1860 Sheriffs models that the Slixshots work perfectly on - no cap jams, reliable ignition, I also have a pair of Uberti 1861 Navies that I've had nothing but problems with Slixshots - they don't work at all. Cap jams, failure to fire, the whole gamut. I put Tresos back on the Uberti's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Yo Slim; Treso nipples used to be manufactured in Pagosa Springs, Colorado, but the the factory was moved to Montana. Production has apparently resumed, and the Possibles Shop in Roswell, NM is advertising most sizes available. I think Slix Shot nipples are a great improvement over factory nipples, but personally i prefer Treso nipples, and i am glad they are becoming available again. I suspect others have them as well, but Don Mayes at the Possibles Shop had always given me prompt service. Link: http://possibleshop.com/s-s-nipples-cb.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Give Ol' Number Four a call to see if he can help diagnose the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 Give Ol' Number Four a call to see if he can help diagnose the issue. Thanks Bandit, do you have contact info for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 Thanks J-Bar. Their website says out of stock. And thanks Larsen, I'll give TOTW a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothill Bandit, SASS# 48598 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 You can Contact Ol' Number 4 at 503-890-7440. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Cap jams, let me count the ways. Slix shot nipples and Remington #10 caps solve MOST of the problems but you can still get jams. I read Larsen Pettifoggers articles on getting capguns ready for competition and all four of my guns have those modifications. I learned from Cactus Cris way back in the day that the hammer should just kiss the nipple and that solves hammer rebound assuming the hammer is not hitting the frame somewhere else. Some pards say the hammer notch has to be filled in otherwise the slot plucks off the cap. Some pards swear the problem goes away with a cap guard. One of my 1851's has no modifications other than Larsen's pistol-slicking recommendations. No cap guard, the evil hammer notch is not filled, and runs fine. One 1860 works fine as well. One 1860 had constant problems like Deadwood had with caps jamming between the recoil shield and nipple. I finally cut a groove in the recoil shield and polished it to solve that problem. My last older Uberti 1851 has given me fits for a year. Did all the mods, cap guard, etc. Still is a jamming SOB but only sometimes. It will run 4 stages fine and then when you think you've finally solved the problem, arrrrrrgh! I did some more tinkering and we will see this weekend. I wonder if my mistake is shooting long-barreled pistols cause that is what I like. If memory serves from all the threads here on the Wire about cap jams the folks who do not seem to have problems shoot them stubby barrel guns. I love shooting capguns. Sometimes them %(*#%# guns don't like me. Maybe I have bad cowboy karma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cole Bluesteele, SASS #37143 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Recoil shield.. we don't need no stinkin' recoil shield. Shoot Dance & Brothers revolvers. They don't have a recoil shield. But beware hot caps dropping on your trigger finger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 A little of this, and a little of that and they will run just fine. They are all Deluxe assembled Kits and need tons of work to make them function and be reliable for our Sport. I have a pair of Pietta 51 Navies in 36 caliber that run very well. This past year, 100% no problems. Not so much for the 1860's. The frames are a little different at the recoil shield on the right side where the spent caps can slide off the frame. My opinion is that this frame difference is where the caps can, and will roll back on exit and cause the cylinder to stick. Polish the right frame slot channel and any sharp edge that may cause a stuck cap exiting the cylinder. With my 51's after the first cylinder is shot and the cone are dirty, I usually have at least three or four spent caps I must use my Cowboy Screw Driver to remove them from the cones. Also one must have the proper Hammer spring tension to go with the desired amount of powder. Then the slix shot nipples will have the desired result, 100% reliability. I use two loads in my 36 Navies, an 18 grain spout and a 21 grain spout. With the 18 gr. spout the load with APP gives me 622FPS, The 21 gr. spout, with APP 971 fps. Both loads were chronograph, and average 5 shot group each load. After using the 51 navies this past year, the 60's stay at home as safe queens. Go Navy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Lefty, Ya big Wimp!! .44s forever. (says the guy waiting for a new set of 36s ) I don't know if this is any kind of a solution, but as I build up a Cap Gun, I take a small diamond file and clean up/bevel the edge of the right side groove in the recoil shield, then attack that little trough with polishing wheel inna Dremel. At this point, ALL of my Cap guns are 100% reliable. As I shoot Gunfighter and don't have a free hand to deal with the odd problem, I do try to eliminate all the odd problems. SlixShots, Remington # 10 Caps, and APP. One caveat, however, my longest barrel gun is 6 1/2 inches. 98% of the time I shoot Snubbies with 3 inch barrels. Also, Lefty sent me a little care package of one of his primo screw drivers that I now carry in my vest pocket to pry the caps off the nips <};~) Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 After my post, I was compelled to remove the 44/ 60's from the safe for a rub-down and gently stroke to ease my guilt. But alas it is not to be. 36's Rule ! Go Navy ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 .36 or .44 they are all good. The Navy's point well and the Army's have a satisfying boom and effect. Got to use the regular hammer spring for sure. I learned my lesson with them Gunslinger springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Nope on the factory hammer springs. I use a lightened spring, but not to much lighter. I then use a stainless steel lock washer under the spring hold down screw to do an adjustment if needed. I do not use a gunslinger springs. CP; If you are ever down this way, I will give you a couple of springs to try. I use the same spring in both the 51's & 60's. Better yet, PM me with your address & real name and I will post a pair on the snail mail to ya. If you like them, well you can buy me Lunch or such at WR next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 Just got off the phone with Ol #4 who agrees that taking the sharp edges off the hammer & recoil shield hammer slot and polishing that trough ought to help. The edges on mine are pretty sharp so I'm gonna give this a try before purchasing more nipples. I'll post an update in a couple of weeks and let everyone know how it turns out. Thanks for all your help everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 An addendum. Forgot, I run light Main Springs in ALL of em. I've found the after-market Main Spring from VTI gun parts works very well and I also regularly use "Lee's Gunsmithing Gunfighter" springs. I do "adjust" them for a little more whack. Remember though, I run Cap Rakes in everything. Keeps the cap from coming completely off the nipple. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 No problems with my brass frame Navies. Larson's fine articles, Utah's cap jam cure and Slix Shot Nipples. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Hey Coffinmaker, Pardon my ignerance but is a cap rake the same as a cap guard? A cap guard is a pin (I use a 4-40 setscrew) in the hammer channel to keep them pesky caps from wandering down into the works. Howdy Lefty, I may take you up on yer kind offer. Lets see ifn I cured the problem. CP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarillo Rattler Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 My 1860 Army's have Cap Guards, so no jams. However, they sometimes spit hot caps into the web of the right hand, a 2-4 second nuisance to clear and sometimes will leave a small blister. The fix for that is a 3/16" ID clear vinyl tubing cut to 1/8" length and slid onto each cap. I use a tool that allows the cap to sit on the end without touching the primer material. No snail loader at the LT and must be pried off at the ULT. The spent cap does not split or move backwards. No more blisters! And a possible cure for all cap problems without replacing nipples or adding Cap Guards. AR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 My 1860 Army's have Cap Guards, so no jams. However, they sometimes spit hot caps into the web of the right hand, a 2-4 second nuisance to clear and sometimes will leave a small blister. The fix for that is a 3/16" ID clear vinyl tubing cut to 1/8" length and slid onto each cap. I use a tool that allows the cap to sit on the end without touching the primer material. No snail loader at the LT and must be pried off at the ULT. The spent cap does not split or move backwards. No more blisters! And a possible cure for all cap problems without replacing nipples or adding Cap Guards. AR AR: Can you post some pics? Appreciated! LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 No problems with my brass frame Navies. Larson's fine articles, Utah's cap jam cure and Slix Shot Nipples. Tully Never heard of it. Can you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 It's a pin, or piece of drill bit put in tbe frame behind the nipple. You must drill a hole and the location of that hole is critical. The hammer must be notched to accommodate the pin. Coconino's fix sounds like the same principle. Goggle Uath's cap jam fix. I've done all my pistols and several for others. It seems to work well. If you are unable to locate the article, PM me. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The cap rake is an elegant solution for preventing cap fragments from falling back into the hammer channel. Unfortunately it does nothing to prevent spent caps from jamming between the cylinder and the water table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafe Conager SASS #56958 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Never experienced a cap jam using slipshot nipple I shoot pietti 60's and 51's that ol#4 worked on they work perfectly. I use #10 Remington caps Rafe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Pistolero, I've always understood a "Cap Guard" was a flat piece of steel, silver soldered across the hammer channel, with a slot cut thru it. About half the total width of the Nipple. The safety notch in the hammer is then welded up, made flat and the sides of the hammer milled back to leave a "blade" that reaches the nipple. The fired cap cannot come back thru the small notch. A Cap Rake as I understand it, and do the modification, is a "post" in the center of the hammer channel, on a parallel line to the recoil shield. Some call it a pin. Some make it from a very fine machine screw and thread it into the frame. I use a drill. The drill I use to make the hole is then cut down to make the pin. Then the hammer is notched to clear the pin. The notch must be deep enough for the hammer to fully seat without contacting the pin. The pin then prevents the cap from coming off the nipple. No cap jams. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Howdy Coffinmaker, Sounds like I was using the wrong terminology fer the cap jam elimination.. I used the same principle as that feller from Utah that Tully told me about. I just use the 4-40 set screw rather than the drill bit. Cap rake has a nice ring to it. CP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarillo Rattler Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 AR: Can you post some pics? Appreciated! LL Be glad to send photos to any and all Pards. Send a PM with your e-mail address. AR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 See an atypical cap jam I had when I let a new shooter try the 1851. Why not it worked all through the match with only 2 minor cases of cap drag. The cap rotated and jammed into the space between the hammer way and the cap rake. It was the fifth shot so I got to take this picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 It looks like your cap rake caused the jam, in my opinion. I can see a small pin rake, that set screw may be taking up needed cap exit space. With out the Hammer slot filled, or a smaller safety slot the cap can fold in the larger Hammer slot. This will fold the spent cap in half, making for a larger cap on exit. Thus causing a cylinder/frame jam. The dirtier the nipples & exit slot the more you have possibility of sticking caps and jams. Do you clean your Hammer & slot after each stage of five rounds ? With my Hammer slot filled, and flat faced the caps stay on the nipples with little petal break of the sides. Most of the spent caps on my 51's need to be removed from the nipples. They are not folded in half, like what I see in your photo above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Had not been cleaning the hammer but I can certainly try. Most spent caps fall off and the remainder get picked off. This is a first for me and I have shot these guns and a 1860 with the cap rakes for more than a year. I may try your method on my last 1851 that I want for a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Stuff happens when shooting cap guns. I was using my Ruger Old Armies at the recent Prince of the Pistoleers extravaganza, and on one stage a spent cap fragment jammed in the slot where the nose of the hammer comes through the frame. I could not cock the gun one handed. I had to use my off hand to help force the cylinder to rotate past the jam. I have had that happen maybe three times in 17 years. So even the cursed ROA can foul up. Part of the charm of the category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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