Pumping revolvers is dangerous

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I just wish one of the "Powers that be" would chime in, so I may either continue shooting Gunfighter, change categories or find something else to do with my time on Sundays.

 

On a side note - I commented above that "Just be cause someone writes something that does not make it so"

That was not intended in any way as a slight towards Buck D Laws fine information for beginning Gunfighters.

Buck shares a lot of really good information and if I made use of it - I would be a better Gunfighter.

I have apologized to Buck and hope my comments were not taken as a slight to him.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

As requested (excerpts from a related email conversation):

 

The "unsafe position" is actually IF the muzzle of a loaded and/or cocked revolver covers the other hand.
If there is sufficient lateral spacing between the hands/arms/pistols, the fact that the muzzle of one revolver might "technically" be behind the opposite hand is NOT a major concern.

There IS if the shooter is crossing over one revolver with the other while actively engaging targets with both at the same time.

Same as if a Duelist shot one revolver, then held it pointed muzzle downrange below/behind the other while shooting the second revolver. (which we actually recommend if the Duelist-style shooter chooses to wait until both revolvers have been shot to holster both of them).

The angle of observation will determine whether a penalty is warranted or not.

 

************

 

FWIW - There is no reference to "pumping" in the rules.

The "one behind the other" is an example of an unsafe position...which is NOT all inclusive for every case of a firearm being behind another during a stage.
It depends on HOW the shooter is putting one behind the other.
REF: RO3 GF section

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Thanks PWB.

 

Thats how some of us have been interpreting those guidelines for quite some time.

 

 

..........Widder

[Madd Mike #8595]

Cool, thanks for the answer PWB,

But I would still not advise it, to GunFighters with two hot guns in hand

 

I can fully understand why it comes up as a question on the wire from time to time

 

Still not sure bout finger in the trigger guard, and thumb on the hammer at the same time?

Oh well

 

Next!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Still not sure bout finger in the trigger guard, and thumb on the hammer at the same time?

Oh well

 

Next!

 

How else am I suppose to cock & shoot my pistols.....

 

 

..........Widder

[Madd Mike #8595]

How else am I suppose to cock & shoot my pistols.....

 

 

..........Widder

Just the way that you already do already, safely

 

To me from the photo, I think it is at least a minor safely

Oh well

 

Guess my mileage is poor right now

[Calico Mary]

 

How else am I suppose to cock & shoot my pistols.....

 

 

..........Widder

 

umm....hello.....yer a Jedi....use tha Force!!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

photo 118, in a link already posted in this string

what about finger in the trigger guard,

while thumb is on the hammer, of a gunfighter, not a duelist

most likely or possibly cocking that pistol, as is usually done when a gunfighter alternatly cocks and fires, not double cocks then fires seperatly

while pistol is located fully behind the forward hand?

 

oh well

mileage will vary

 

Legal or not, I can see how some folks on a posse would consider this as an unsafe practice

Nor would I encourage new GunFighters towards this style

 

http://www.endlessli...6e0199#h46e0199

 

 

Cool, thanks for the answer PWB,

But I would still not advise it, to GunFighters with two hot guns in hand

 

I can fully understand why it comes up as a question on the wire from time to time

 

Still not sure bout finger in the trigger guard, and thumb on the hammer at the same time?

Oh well

 

Next!

 

 

Just the way that you already do already, safely

 

To me from the photo, I think it is at least a minor safely

Oh well

 

Guess my mileage is poor right now

 

MM,

No rule against it...no penalty to be applied.

Do YOU remove your trigger finger from the trigger guard when your thumb is on the hammer?

(when shooting Duelist or GF-style?)

What about the LEGAL practice of slip-hammering...even by a Duelist/Gunfighter?

How else can they do so??

 

Just asking.

PWB

[Madd Mike #8595]

My answer is yes finger in trigger guard, while thumb is working the hammer to accommodate a fully cocked position

but only one live gun is being used in the shooting string at a time, for a duelist, or support handed shooters' are performing those task

 

Look folks, I love it when I am proved wrong, WHY, because I get the opportunity to learn, but only if I choose to

I get it, it's legal, I get it, it's legal

 

My take away is that it is totally legal in a CAS shoot to have a fully loaded gun in hand, fingers and thumbs located anywhere you wish, while that gun is behind human flesh

 

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye

 

Trust me,,,,,,I get it

It's legal

 

I can truly,,,,,,,,Still see why some others on the wire keep asking the question from time to time

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

Other action shooting sports prohibit sweeping anyone, including yourself, with an unloaded or loaded gun. The rules do have an exemption to allow drawing the gun and reholstering. But even when reholstering, you can't reach across with your weak hand to hold the holster open, for example, and sweep your weak hand with the unloaded gun as you reholster. DQ. Also, on a stage where you would start seated, if you sit with your leg bent out to the right, for a right handed shooter, if you draw and sweep your leg, DQ. In that case you need to be careful and position your leg to the left so you don't sweep it as you draw. Smokin Gator

That may be true in other sports, but there is no rule against sweeping oneself in CAS, including holding the cross draw holster with one hand while drawing with the other. And nobody makes a big deal about how you sit while you are drawing the gun.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

My answer is yes finger in trigger guard, while thumb is working the hammer to accommodate a fully cocked position

but only one live gun is being used in the shooting string at a time, for a duelist, or support handed shooters' are performing those task

 

Look folks, I love it when I am proved wrong, WHY, because I get the opportunity to learn, but only if I choose to

I get it, it's legal, I get it, it's legal

 

My take away is that it is totally legal in a CAS shoot to have a fully loaded gun in hand, fingers and thumbs located anywhere you wish, while that gun is behind human flesh

As both Creeker and I pointed out..."one BEHIND the other" doesn't necessarily mean that the MUZZLE of a firearm is always covering the other hand.

When/IF it IS, then it is considered an "unsafe position" and forbidden under the GF rules (regardless of the fact that sweeping oneself is allowed otherwise)

 

 

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye

 

Trust me,,,,,,I get it

It's legal

 

I can truly,,,,,,,,Still see why some others on the wire keep asking the question from time to time

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I just wish one of the "Powers that be" would chime in, so I may either continue shooting Gunfighter, change categories or find something else to do with my time on Sundays.

 

On a side note - I commented above that "Just be cause someone writes something that does not make it so"

That was not intended in any way as a slight towards Buck D Laws fine information for beginning Gunfighters.

Buck shares a lot of really good information and if I made use of it - I would be a better Gunfighter.

I have apologized to Buck and hope my comments were not taken as a slight to him.

No apology needed. I actually agree with the sentiment. If it's not in the books, it's an opinion. I've been known to have one or three. I do try to distinguish whether I'm "IMO" or stating rules.

 

For anyone who wonders, Gunfighter 101 is a collection of my ever evolving opinions.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

 

REF: RO3 GF section

[Madd Mike #8595]

Ok

So now we know for sure that pumping is totally legal

 

I can still see why many see is as an possible dangerous situation

[Ramblin Gambler]

Hi Darlin',

 

The rule I quoted is listed under Gunfighter in the ROII. There is nothing said about sweeping yourself or pumping; however, from what I am reading, I think the rule is describing what could be called sweeping or pumping. The rule says one revolver behind the other is an example of an unsafe position. Also, it would be shooting out of category for a GF, a progressive penalty.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Well, that's interesting. So, unsafe gun handling is only against the rules for gunfighters? Something about that seems odd. I guess that means us gunfighters are the safest shooters out there and we get can handle being held to a higher standard.

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

Are we turning GF threads into the BW threads?

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

SASS has been described before as an entry level action shooting sport. Lots of good experienced shooters but at the same time a higher percentage of new shooters who haven't been shooting for very long compared to other action shooting sports. Yet we have the least stringent rules when it comes to sweeping ones self with an empty or LOADED firearm. No liability concerns with that I guess. Smoking Gator

[J-BAR #18287]

Maybe it's just me but I'd rather not have to tell a Grande Dame that she just got a MDQ for sweeping her leg on the draw...

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I've already explained that SASS and the other shooting sports exempt sweeping when it comes to drawing your pistol. We would have no action shooting sports if they didn't. I would prefer that a Grande Same not be allowed to sweep herself(other than drawing) with a loaded gun so she can hug those grandkids with both arms. But I guess that's just me. Smoking Gator

[J-BAR #18287]

Do you see such sweeps going uncalled?

 

(I thought the thread was about gun fighters sweeping themselves)

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Yes. The exemption for drawing or returning the gun to the holster does not allow sweeping the off hand with the pistol at least in the other sports. Holding your cross draw holster with the weak hand while drawing or reholstering with the strong hand wouldn't be allowed.

 

Also shooters reaching in front of themselves for a rifle or shotgun sometimes sweep themselves with the handgun as they draw or reholster. Smoking Gator

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

If its legal in SASS then it's not going uncalled. I'm just pointing out that in other shooting sports, with a higher percentage of experienced shooters, the same sweeping of oneself is not allowed. Smoking Gator

[Gawd Awful]

If its legal in SASS then it's not going uncalled. I'm just pointing out that in other shooting sports, with a higher percentage of experienced shooters, the same sweeping of oneself is not allowed. Smoking Gator

Other sports don't allow you to return your handgun to the holster until it's cleared by an RO, other sports don't have catagories with clothing requirements, other shooting sports require use of the safety on your firearms, other sports encourage moving with a cocked gun...... If you have such a huge problem with the fact that we aren't "other shooting sports", sell your CAS gear and go shoot other shooting sports. No sense spending time and money shooting a GAME that you don't enjoy the rules of

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

So, SASS shooters have a lower percentage of experienced shooters...

 

That's news to me.

 

I'm 33 years old, and have made a living in occupations that require a degree of firearms proficiency above the average cat, for the last 15 years. Before that I was a normal country kid, and was allowed to carry a .22 rifle around the farm, beginning about age 11-12. Later in my teens it was a 30-30 or a .308.

 

So, call it a touch over 20 years of firearm experience.

 

If I've met someone in SASS that had less experience or ability with a gun than myself, I wasn't able to tell by the way they handled their guns.

[Blastmaster]

So, SASS shooters have a lower percentage of experienced shooters...

 

That's news to me.

 

I'm 33 years old, and have made a living in occupations that require a degree of firearms proficiency above the average cat, for the last 15 years. Before that I was a normal country kid, and was allowed to carry a .22 rifle around the farm, beginning about age 11-12. Later in my teens it was a 30-30 or a .308.

 

So, call it a touch over 20 years of firearm experience.

 

If I've met someone in SASS that had less experience or ability with a gun than myself, I wasn't able to tell by the way they handled their guns.

Farmer Tom,

 

You are probably not one of them, inexperience type.

 

Now that the subject came to light, pay more attention by visual & conversation to folks around you and you will understand.

 

Then again, each of us probably has a different definition of what we consider minimal firearm experience.

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

Farmer Tom,

 

You are probably not one of them, inexperience type.

 

Now that the subject came to light, pay more attention by visual & conversation to folks around you and you will understand.

 

Then again, each of us probably has a different definition of what we consider minimal firearm experience.

 

I don't think I am one of them, but whatever my opinion of myself, my opinion is that the average CAS/SASS shooter is more experienced than I am.

 

Having some background in training others to use firearms, I'd like to also believe that I have an eye conditioned to catch unsafe habits, and/or recognize someone who is unfamiliar/unsure with firearms.

 

So far, being very new to this game, I've seen nothing to alarm me, and much that impresses me.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

In my opinion and experiences, the older age group of shooters have experience with a more varied knowledge of guns, expecially the wheel guns and lever actions. Heck, some of them even own ORIGINAL 1873's by WInchester. Even an old Henry 1860 (?) shows up on the firing line every now and then.

 

it seems some of the younger set have a good knowledge of 'modern' firearms more so than the 'wheel gun' and lever guns.

 

They have been use to 10-17 shot shooting strings back out on Uncle Johns farm. Their SG's have been 7-8 shot Bennelli's that are preloaded before they start pulling the trigger.

And their rifles are the AR styles with 20 shot mags.

 

AND, in some cases, the region of the country seems to make a difference in the knowledge of guns.....or the lack thereof.

 

My guess that someone from the south, especially Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Louisiana, Kentucky, etc... might generally have started shooting grandpa's .22 when they were 6 or 7 years old.

 

But someone from a more firearms restricted state might not have much experience at all, whether they are old or young.

 

Mileage varies on this one, probably like it does on most topics we discuss.

 

I always enjoy the 'lunch table' discussions.

 

 

..........Widder

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

pumping can be dangeros, fer instance, you got chur shoulder holster on and loaded wit 6 rounds and u decide to pump the ole pump handle on the water pump thit was built for a child's use, yu dip down too low to pump and yur pistol falls out and lands on the spur, yup cud b dangerus!!!!

 

happy Mundey morning!

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

"So, SASS shooters have a lower percentage of experienced shooters...

 

That's news to me.

 

I'm 33 years old, and have made a living in occupations that require a degree of firearms proficiency above the average cat, for the last 15 years. Before that I was a normal country kid, and was allowed to carry a .22 rifle around the farm, beginning about age 11-12. Later in my teens it was a 30-30 or a .308.

 

So, call it a touch over 20 years of firearm experience.

 

If I've met someone in SASS that had less experience or ability with a gun than myself, I wasn't able to tell by the way they handled their guns."

 

 

In many discussions on a variety of topics it has been pointed out that SASS gets a lot of new shooters involved in shooting. Of course there are many very experienced shooters in SASS. But for a lot of them, for example, a 50 to 60 year old guy, his wife wants to join in and she may have never fired a firearm before. This happens a lot.

 

Also our big, close targets and very low power factor help inexperienced shooters have fun getting started. We all know that the better shooters do it at a much faster pace. There are experienced and inexperienced shooters in all age brackets. We get more spouses and kids involved them other shooting sports and that's great. But many of them are not experienced shooters. That's all. SASS gets a lot of new shooters, IDPA gets a fair number, USPSA not a lot of brand new shooters. Smokin GAtor