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Captain Bill Burt

What's the call?

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IIRC if the gun is made safe by ULTO rather than the shooter and there is an AD it is a no call. If there is an AD by the shooter at the ULT it is a MDQ. kR

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Assessment of a penalty will depend on varying circumstances and conditions.

(e.g. unsafe handling of the firearm in an area not designated for clearing a malfunction)

There is no "every time, no matter what" application of the rule.

 

FYI:

 

The penalties that do NOT apply after declaration of a malfunction would be:1) Penalties for "rounds remaining" (although the 5-second/misses for "unfired rounds" still apply).2) Penalties for "round under the hammer" (as long as a revolver is NOT HOLSTERED in that condition) 3) Penalty for a "cocked firearm leaving the shooter's hand(s)"3) "Traveling" if the shooter must move in order to SAFELY ground the firearm on a prop. [/size]

Like Capt. Bill, I understand your response to indicate that it is a judgment call, and in particular whether the shooter's handling of the gun at the ULT was safe or not. But your listing of the penalties negated by declaring the malfunction make clear that not all penalties for subsequent acts are eliminated. For example, if the shooter swept someone at the ULT or dropped the loaded gun there, I assume penalties would apply. So is an unintended discharge there different, and if so is the rationale that the AD, unlike the other examples, is somehow caused by the condition of the gun? Or is it a judgment call based on the official's determination whether the gun could have been cleared without a discharge? Thanks for any clarification, Palewolf.

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I'm sorry. I do not see a clarification.

 

The question is not if the shooter was doing something wrong at the time in his attempt to clear the gun. The fact is the gun went bang while not on the firing line.

I'm aware of the situation J-Bar is referring to and I also would like a definitive answer.

The suggestion that each situation is different and you must needs depend upon the subjective opinion of the ULT officer is very close to no answer at all. In such a case a different penalty can be assessed at each occurrence.

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broken firing pin, shooter declares broken gun not knowing what is broken only that it is broken, at ult levers it to unload rifle, of course with broken firing pin sticking out the rifle fires,

 

you would to call a MDQ for this?

 

sheesh.....

 

if the 170 was broken, swept someone or other such violation, call it.

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IIRC if the gun is made safe by ULTO rather than the shooter and there is an AD it is a no call. If there is an AD by the shooter at the ULT it is a MDQ. kR

 

 

I do not want to have someone whose skills may be questionable attempting to clear one of my guns just so I can avoid a penalty if the gun goes bang. Rules should not encourage anyone other than the shooter clearing his own guns.

 

I hope PWB comes back with additional comments.

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situation, wife has rifle troubles, calls husband or who ever to help her. you think to self, if gun goes bang I get MDQ, nope you're on your own honey.

 

wife sez, if I work on it and it goes bang, I get MDQ, hmmmm. help!!

 

it's a broken gun, been declared, and if handled safely, and it goes bang while being worked on, no call.

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situation, wife has rifle troubles, calls husband or who ever to help her. you think to self, if gun goes bang I get MDQ, nope you're on your own honey.

 

wife sez, if I work on it and it goes bang, I get MDQ, hmmmm. help!!

 

it's a broken gun, been declared, and if handled safely, and it goes bang while being worked on, no call.

 

 

As I understand the present rule, if you think you have a risk of the gun going bang while fixing it, the smartest way to handle it is to ask the Timer Operator for permission to return to the position where the guns were to be fired and work on it there. Then if it goes bang, no matter who is working on it, there is no penalty. (Because you are not at the Loading Table or the Unloading Table.)

 

I don't particularly like the rule. I am not defending it. As one who shoots cap and ball revolvers it would be a lot less hassle for me if I could recap and clear the chambers at the unloading table. But my understanding of the rules at this point is, even if I were to ask for permission to do that, I would still get a MDQ because the TO and ULT Officer do not have authority to waive the rule.

 

So if you or your wife cannot figure out a way to clear a gun at the unloading table without a risk of it firing, it appears that the rules are encouraging you to return to the firing line to fix it.

 

I hope PWB will come back and confirm or deny this.

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uncle!

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Lets think about this.

 

A gun is "broken" in some manner and still loaded.

 

How should it be handled?

 

Should we:

  1. Have the shooter put the gun in their car and take it to their apartment complex?
  2. Shut down the match so they can work on the gun on the firing line?
  3. Make only the shooter (with possibly minimal gunsmith experience) work on their gun alone?
  4. Allow the shooter or knowledgeable person of his and the Match Director's choice to work on the gun at a safe location as best as the range provides?

 

Number 1 ensures an unsafe situation. I believe it is our responsibility to avoid such.

Number 2 can significantly delay the match for everyone and still not provide any safety advantage to the later choices.

Number 3 may very well lead to an unsafe situation.

Number 4 seems the logical choice.

 

Of course the rules still apply that general safety procedures are to be followed. If they are not, a penalty is appropriate.

 

But, yes, broken guns can and do fire without anyone touching the trigger. Cypress Sam provided an excellent video of that with a rifle.

 

And when we work on guns, something can (and eventually will) slip so that the gun may fire - just make certain it is pointed in a safe direction. Up is not a safe direction in such cases.

 

When I learned that the majority of accidents happened with 10 miles of home, I moved!!!! Problem solved. :D :D :D

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I do not want to have someone whose skills may be questionable attempting to clear one of my guns just so I can avoid a penalty if the gun goes bang. Rules should not encourage anyone other than the shooter clearing his own guns.

 

I hope PWB comes back with additional comments.

I have seen a couple of AD's by the "shooter" in an attempt to clear a gun and several times have seen someone else selected by posse leader or MD clear a gun safely with no AD. I have cleared several with no AD. I am relatively new to CAS but I have been shooting for over 60 yrs. kR

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the only person that should have say on who may work on a broken firearm is the shooter!! what MD or PM wants that liability?

 

a MD or PM may suggest someone, but only with the shooter's approval....

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Our range is small with no berms. We commonly allow C^B shooters or anyone with a malfunction to clearand or function check, WITH RO?TO PERMISSION, at the ULT.

 

 

?This is a MDQ?

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Our range is small with no berms. We commonly allow C^B shooters or anyone with a malfunction to clearand or function check, WITH RO?TO PERMISSION, at the ULT.

 

 

?This is a MDQ?

why would it be?

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I was a spotter. The rifle was grounded and I took it to the unloading table and grounded it there. The shooter picked up the rifle and started trying to operate the lever. When it would not move he started harshly trying to work the lever. The round fired out of battery striking the side berm approx. 5 feet from the ult. I felt the excessive jamming of the lever was an unsafe action and called a MDQ. It was later overruled.

 

Here again we have a case of jamming the lever on a 73 causing a out of battery firing. DQ or none we have to somehow get people to stop this unsafe practice before someone gets hurt.

 

Mckenzie

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hmmmmm

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I was the expeditor. The rifle was grounded and I took it to the unloading table and grounded it there. The shooter picked up the rifle and started trying to operate the lever. When it would not move he started harshly trying to work the lever. The round fired out of battery striking the side berm approx. 5 feet from the ult. I felt the excessive jamming of the lever was an unsafe action and called a MDQ. It was later overruled.

 

Here again we have a case of jamming the lever on a 73 causing a out of battery firing. DQ or none we have to somehow get people to stop this unsafe practice before someone gets hurt.

 

Mckenzie

 

And the other, other side of the story is you never told me that the shooter was 'harshly working the lever'. You said he was working on the gun and it went off. You also stated that you called a MDQ on the shooter. That's interesting since you weren't a posse official. You have a habit of making calls when you aren't in a position to do so. You also have a habit of absolute certainty about the calls you make. You also immediately confronted me about it and tried to badger me into immediately making a call. The basis for your argument and I quote was "If you had been standing next to him when it went off you would know it was a MDQ." I preferred to let the Posse Marshal handle it and only step in if needed, which eventually it was.

 

We'll discuss the issue of you making future calls at Doc Holliday's in person.

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The reason I said shooter and match director was that first, it is always the shooters choice as to who works on their gun.

 

But very often people are not knowledgeable of the risks and processed needed.

 

So it is appropriate for the official to warn the shooter, recommend someone knowledgeable help and give the shooter the option.

 

But after a certain point, it can become a judgement call as to how well the gun is handled.

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I'm out!

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There's a couple people in this thread acting like the ULT is not part of the firing line. My recollection is that the firing line is defined as being from the loading table to the ULT. Am I missing something, or am I just being pedantic?

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RG... you are correct that the ULT is a part of the Firing Line...LT to ULT. That said, this is a perfect example that rules can't be made perfect... and the SASS WAHR is the place we put 'pedantic' to it's most illogical sometimes, extended definition.

 

In this case (as you will soon note as the rule not the exception) after 2-3 pages we get more of the story. It often helps to read all WTC's with a smile since knowing some of the characters more personally will undoubtedly cause you to find this an incredibly inexpensive if not often infuriating medium of entertainment.

 

I have now consulted the sacred texts and can find no mention of "harshly working" with any regard to any gun clearing activities. We can only imagine the scene and leave the actual call to those who were there; the new evidence brings up more questions than it does answers in my view.

 

Indeed, my old '73, before the masterful touch by Cowboys and Indians resolved the headspace cause by an OBD, was voted most likely to become a harshly worked, bent and beaten POS that I might have given someone if I truly hated them.

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There's a couple people in this thread acting like the ULT is not part of the firing line. My recollection is that the firing line is defined as being from the loading table to the ULT. Am I missing something, or am I just being pedantic?

I believe you mean firing line is this imaginary path from LT to all along the firing line(place where you stage and shoot your firearms) and then on to ULT.

 

Some think you can not deviate from LT to Firing line....

 

But OK (no call) if you deviate from Firing Line to Gun Cart (but don't remove hands from guns at gun cart) then to ULT.

 

That aside, I too believe ULT is a component of the firing line.

 

Probable should've started a new threat. But this thread is already warmed up. LOL!!

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From Glossary, page 30, RO1: Firing line – From first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table

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