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Vance Montana

Should EOT have an onsite Ambulance for Emergencies?

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I'm not saying they shouldn't, but the situation is not much different than skiing. There is a "medical room" where some kind of medic or the occasional doctor may be present at the lodge, but even if an ambulance is stationed right there, it can be 3 hours down the mountain to a hospital. (been there, done that)

 

When you choose to engage in a sport or game that takes you off the well beaten path, that is sometimes the reality.

 

How about someone let us know what the cost is of parking a full ambulance there for the week? I bet it's cost prohibitive. Undoable for a week I'd think.

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I'm not saying they shouldn't, but the situation is not much different than skiing. There is a "medical room" where some kind of medic or the occasional doctor may be present at the lodge, but even if an ambulance is stationed right there, it can be 3 hours down the mountain to a hospital. (been there, done that)

 

When you choose to engage in a sport or game that takes you off the well beaten path, that is sometimes the reality.

 

How about someone let us know what the cost is of parking a full ambulance there for the week? I bet it's cost prohibitive. Undoable for a week I'd think.

Man hour cost too, for folks on a payroll to be available to drive it, and provide proper care in the back.

There are many private ambulance business's, it should not be hard to get a quote

7, ten hour days of shooting 70, times three (driver, two emts) is 210 man hours, times $30 (benefit package etc) $6,300 plus ambulance rent $2,000 probably about $20.00 more per shooter at would need to be charged

This is just my WAG (wild a** guesstimating)

 

I know, you can't put a price on life, but something's come with a certain amount of risk

A good plan with proper volunteers, posted names / range contact folks is a good start

 

Mileage will vary as usual

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Can we have a tally here for all match directors of EOT to see if you the shooter would appreciate the luxury of knowing you do not need to wait 40min to an hour for medical help to come to the rescue if something tragic happens to you while on the range.

 

As a doctor and being at the seen as a first responder for two separate medical emergencies (two separate years) I am asking you all to look at this issue very closely.

 

Vance Montana

 

 

So are you willing to provide necessary first aid and medical treatment until EMS arrives and the patient is stabilized?

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So are you willing to provide necessary first aid and medical treatment until EMS arrives and the patient is stabilized?

Sounds like he did. Vance is a good guy and willing to help but he is also there to compete. What if he wasn't on the range when the problem occurred. I think it's worth discussing. Another couple bucks on my entry for EMTs wouldn't bother me.

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Seldom, As a Doctor and Cowboy I will always help my fellow man in need. The question here before us is there a better way to prepare for the unseen than relying on the good Samaritan act? Not much a doctor on the site can do if the person

1. goes into diabetic ketoacidosis

2. has seizure

3 heart attack

4. stroke

5 gun shot to femoral artery (Leg) which an AD happened this past weekend on my posse in the holster down the leg (just a graze though)

 

just to name a few.

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Is there even a Defibrillator on site?

 

There dang well should be. And at least a few trained on how to use it.

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Howdy Al,

No defibrillator!

 

This is my point we need a concerted effort amongst all involved to have something in place that makes sense for our fellow shooters. It just makes sense and goes along with our first GOLDEN RULE--BE SAFE!!

Vance

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Howdy Al,

No defibrillator!

 

This is my point we need a concerted effort amongst all involved to have something in place that makes sense for our fellow shooters. It just makes sense and goes along with our first GOLDEN RULE--BE SAFE!!

Vance

 

 

That's a dang shame. Most schools around here have gotten them and trained

some of the staff how to use them.

 

Those can be had for a few thousand dollars. Think we could easily raise that amount to

have one there.

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Many projects at founders ranch have had separate fund raisers for a specific goal

 

Someone could pick up that ball and run with it at this conjuncture

 

Set up a online way to accept donations

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I do not feel that it should be a mandate

 

Leave it up to individual shoots, based upon their own unique factors to do what they think is appropriate

 

This discussion is important, you can bet many clubs will show improvement along these lines

 

 

 

Mileage will very

 

 

Our club, the Chorro Valley Regulators, bought an AED and we have used it..... We also always describe at the shooter's safety meeting what needs to happen in the event of a medical emergency. I am an MD.... I recommend, due to the general age and condition of our friends, that all clubs consider having an AED on site.

At Ascot park flat tracks and TT I can remember the break in the racing while the ambulance left with a injured rider, restarting with the ambulances return. The concept of having aid on site reduces risk. My, at the time, teen age understanding was that this was good.

 

We had the EMT ambulance at one State match and the owner of the range said, paraphrasing, "I don't like the impression you are giving to my other range users that this is so dangerous that an ambulance is needed, don't do this again." So we didn't.

 

So we did as Madd Mike and Palindrome suggest, we adapted to local factors. We have had an AED long enough to be on our second AED battery. We have a helicopter usable area. Every safety briefing I say the same thing: "AED and first aid kit at registration. Phone at range house. Send some one to gate to show EMT the location."

 

And to another poster, yes I will do (and have done) everything I can do to render help and aid to those in need.

 

What a great game we have!!!!!!

 

Fordyce

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Vance.....Thanks for posting this. The issue about having an ambulance stationed on site is a valid one. In years past, one was posted on site durring the main shooting event. This was costly and it still left us without contracted EMT services after hours. Luckily, we have had 24 hour medical coverage on site over the last few years due to the dedicated efforts of Dusty Garnet and her volunteer support crew on site. Both medical services and site safety/security are handled entirely by volunteer "Waddies" at this event.

 

This does not address the response time of being able to immediately begin transport of something serious, but it does give the site 24/7 medical services for more minor issues. The local emergency services agencies are always notified ahead of time that the event is taking place, but the ambulance response time is what it is in this rural location. The site does have a designated helicopter landing zone and a plan in place if that is needed. Ambulatory emergencies have been handled to the best of our ability with the only delay being that of the ambulance response time to the site.

 

I'd strongly suggest that SASS be contacted directly with your concerns. The cost of having an ambulance on site 24/7 for the two weeks of this event is valid and should be discussed.

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Hank, thank you for your concerns. I agree this post should and will draw attention to all those as SASS headquarters to make the proper changes for upcoming events.

Vance Montana

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I believe, if it is possible to have emergency personnel, it should be done.

 

We have a less than 200 shooter state match and our local volunteer fire department provides an ambulance and EMTs during the match. We in turn make a donation to their department.

 

I have also requested, (during the safety speech), that medical professionals let me know if they would assist in an emergency. We kept track of them by posse and were actually called upon (Doctor) to assist before medical teams arrived. The question of availability could also be a check off on the application.

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So, a few have stated that they would pay a couple of bucks extra, in their shooting fee to cover the cost

However, I fear that the real cost would be far higher, so what is the max that shooters are willing to pay?

 

If you have one on site and it makes a trip with someone in need, do you halt the shoot until a back up one arrives? As we continue to age, will we require multiple ambulance's

 

Just some things to consider when we ask for something

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Maybe $20 would be fair. Multiply that by 500 shooters and it is $10,000. I'm not sure if that is enough for a match the length of EOT.

 

Many folks have listed arrangements they've made with local agencies. I'm not sure how supportive the Morarity or Edgewood Fire Departments would be. Something to check out.

 

Our little annual in CA would have a hard time covering costs with only 150 or so shooters. Adding $20 to a low match fee may seem too high. But it would raise $3000.

 

There are many things to consider and we should do so.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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I believe an on site ambulance would be nice but cost prohibitive.

 

Someone mentioned downhill skiing not having an on site ambulance, but ski areas 'do' have trained 'ski patrol' personel and a medical center on site for further first aide treatment and wait station for a real ambulance.. I think that is a reasonable compromise

 

I do believe SASS matches should meet or model after a comercial ski area medical coverage criteria.... meaning trained, certified,skilled medical staff to be on site during event hours with proper medical equipment (AED, stretchers, bandages, medical first aide station/building, ect) to diagnose, treat, stabilize and prepare for transport while a real ambulance and crew are in route. And I don't mean any ol bubba with a beginner 101 first aide card/training twelve bays down, on foot.

 

Cost? good point. My WAG is $125 per man- hour for commercial qualified responders that are qualified for strokes, heart attacks and gun shot wounds. .

 

I agree with MM, it will be more than a couple bucks per shooter to cover medical. Cost per shooter goes down as the match atendance goes up . But even with 800 shooters, the cost will still be significant.

 

Good luck.

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Maybe $20 would be fair. Multiply that by 500 shooters and it is $10,000. I'm not sure if that is enough for a match the length of EOT.

 

Many folks have listed arrangements they've made with local agencies. I'm not sure how supportive the Morarity or Edgewood Fire Departments would be. Something to check out.

 

There are many things to consider and we should do so.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Good points

However

Edgewood and mararity are not all that big

If local folks had to wait longer because their ambulance had to come from a rural area to service them?

It is still something to be looked into,

response times always vary, do to added circumstances prevalent at the time of a given call

An ambulance on site may need to leave at any time

A contracted priority one ambulance designated to the shoot, might be pretty costly

 

Once again, many things to consider

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I'd bet that the WB has discussed this subject and the results are based on their decision ...

New Jersey State Match, for I believe all of the 10 years for the match, the local First Aid Squad with 2 EMT's on site each day of the event. No extra cost in the shooter's check either.

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Yes

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Good point Vance I'm in favor of it. I might be the one in need of a quick response. SA

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Why wouldn't on site medical support be a condition for permit approval for a major shoot? At least some locations require a conditional use permit for such activities as gun ranges or other events drawing a large number of attendees-heck even rock concerts require conditional use permits for some locations..

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Why wouldn't on site medical support be a condition for permit approval for a major shoot? At least some locations require a conditional use permit for such activities as gun ranges or other events drawing a large number of attendees-heck even rock concerts require conditional use permits for some locations..

Once again who pays

Rock concerts usually have thousands of ticket holders to pass the hard cost on too

 

Should a range with a business operating license / permit then be required to always provide the ambulance or just on days that the number of folks are ? And above

WhEn stampede annual shoot in Las Vegas, got their special use permit from BLM

A shoot held on government held lands, a shoot for 350 plus shooters, no such condition was required

Just a ton of paper work and land use fees

 

Some times we can sure spend others money pretty darned fast, without crunching numbers, or offering ideas on how to properly fund our good intentions

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I agree with Vance, and I also agree he is certainly a man to ride the river with. One thing to point out though, Dusty Garnet is a Registered Nurse trained in Emergency Medicine, and in fact DOES have an AED. This issues I see are an AED is useless in the case of stroke, diabetic emergency or gunshot (as mentioned by Vance). We DO have several doctors and EMTs who are shooters and I am sure that they would all do that they can do, but without proper equipment their abilities are limited as well. While cost may be a consideration, I believe the real question is NOT that of cost, but of availability of an ambulance, MICU and the trained personnel to man them. Someone pointed out that Moriority and Edgewood are small towns, and have very limited resources. Their ability or willingness to provide 24 hour coverage, at ANY PRICE may be the real issue here. Contract ambulance services that I have had experience with are mainly transport ambulances and have little or no equipment or ability to treat life threatening emergencies. This is a very valid concern, but without further research of available resources, there is no valid answer. JMHO

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On issues like this there are often so many considerations; sides; variables; costs; logistics and then if/when something....the unthinkable tragedy happens all of those I assure you will seem so petty and trivial that objective observers in hindsight will use all of them to criticize your values.

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On issues like this there are often so many considerations; sides; variables; costs; logistics and then if/when something....the unthinkable tragedy happens all of those I assure you will seem so petty and trivial that objective observers in hindsight will use all of them to criticize your values.

Sure enough,,, lots of variables each has to consider before signing up. Cost shouldn't be a big factor,,, considering what the medical bills sure could be for a fubar of a shooter health caused by or accelerated by match conditions.

 

Think of all the potential possiblities of medical distress when voting on safety rules such as discarding a firearm with action closed with questionable live/empty cartidge in chamber,,,, or on carrier,,, with an unattentive TO supposedly assisting shooter.,,,

 

Each minute is worth Gold when you are on the edge of life cause by medical/accident situations.

 

Welcome to my world, living in very rural situation where medical help is just 100 miles away.

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@ EOT '07 I saw paramedic and an ambulance and almost needed them. All week I had a hard time breathing and could not walk from the handicapped parking area to the range w/o stopping to sit on my cart and catch my breath. I just figured it was the altitude & heat. Wrong!! 8-7-07, I was standing at my desk in my (home) office when all of a sudden my legs went numb from my waist down to my toes & I had severe chest pains. Wife got help and got me to the hospital. Turns out I had an aneurism on the decending side of my aorta that ballooned up and had pressed against a nerve. For some reason it went down on its own. Dr. said that if it had ruptured I would have been dead before I hit the floor. Got me into surgery & fixed it pronto.

 

Around here AEDs run around $1800.00. For those of you squawking about the cost of having an ambulance & paramedics on scene at major matches, I hope that YOU are not the one that ever needs them.

 

How much is a life worth?

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Yes

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There is professional medical help on scene it's in the nurses office as you walk from the parking lot. An am balance would be useless except for the equipment the carry as any serious injury would require an life flight hello to get you to unm the trama hospital in the area.

 

I know part of this from experience. I had an mc accident on the other side of ABQ and they were going to fly me to unm but I could not lay flat do to stimulator in my back so it was the a balance bouncing thru ABQ to the hospital with a busted leg. The time it would take an a balance to drive to unm the hello can be sent, pick up and return to unm.

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How much is a life worth?

 

 

Mine is worth everything i have,,,

everyone elses is worth something less....

I expect everyones view is about the same.

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How much is a life worth?

 

 

Mine is worth everything i have,,,

everyone elses is worth something less....

I expect everyones view is about the same.

 

100% agree.... I call that total honesty! I think I will write that down.

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Had heart attack at Winter Range a year ago took 40 minutes for ambulance to get there 10 minute ride to hospital can say for sure will never go to Winter Range again

How long til the on site WR medics were with you?

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Short answer - yes!

 

Long answer - yes please!

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How many units?

 

If they are called into action and have to make a run to the hospital the event would be without services for hours.

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Went to medical tent two medics not qualified to do anything buy give me oxygen took 15 to 20 minutes for fire dept medics to get there and give me nitro another 20 minutes before ambulance came

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