Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Vance Montana

Should EOT have an onsite Ambulance for Emergencies?

Recommended Posts

We were discussing the safest way to care for our friends who may be afflicted with a serious medical emergency. If you don't respect nor particularly care for physicians, that's your prerogative. I'm just not in the mood to be insulted.

Vance and Palindrome,

 

Upon rereading my posts I realized I was letting my feelings about medical mistakes that occurred two years ago color my comments in a insulting manner.

 

I express my sincerest apologies as you both are obviously caring Pards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matthew,

 

Your last two post are silly !!

 

We all know having a hospital, medical equiped helicopter and such are prohibitive.

 

Yer kidding about a check box,,, organizers need to know well in advance and have contracts signed with outside services (medical for this discussion) well in advanced so they can formulate a budget for the event, meaning match fees to be collected. As well as being silly that someone would be refused medical services if they checked no on the entry fee.

 

Bravo for the clubs that can and find community medical ambulance service, for pennies for their event.

 

The volunteer fire/ambulance where I live are volunteers, they have a life and are not sitting around the fire hall waiting for a call. When they get a call, some will mobilize from their home to the site an others will mobilize to the fire hall to get the truck.

 

I am guessing the out of pocket extra cost would be in the $50 per person range for a fairly large event (500 shooters) for just trained medical personel to be on site and no on site ambulance. We can argue the $ per person, but that question was asked, what is your threshhold $ add on to attend a match.?

 

 

Liability and Special Use Permit requirements are probably two items that have been overlooked.

No his post we're not silly

He was merely expanding upon a point to get some folks attention, as that is what it takes on tv and movies to hold or attention these days

 

Yet, what is stated above, in some cases seems to become part of a slippery slope a decade from now, in where are thinking and demands come to fertility

 

All of the clubs that have affordable ambulance on site now, may I and many others on the wire praise your personal negotiations and local circumstances to provide such an important aspect to speedy transport

However::::::::::::::::::

 

Ask / suggest / demand, affordable ambulance's for all, and we just may be surprised at the outcome several years down the road

 

Cost will always be cost in some way or another

 

Happy Fourth of July weekend to you all

No matter what side of the fence you may be on

(Brit side or American side)

 

There will always be. Splits to every ????.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to thank everyone for their honest input on this topic. The truth of the matter is we need some type of standard put in place for the big matches EOT, WR, Regionals and State Matches.

 

my suggestions,

 

1. contract an independent squad for main match days or your local ems, fire department (add additional money needed to each entry)

2. AED

3. protocol announced at every safety meeting of what to do, who to call…..

 

These are what I will take to powers that be...

 

If you have others post them please!

Thanks, Your humble servant Vance Montana

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Vance.

 

Hate to say it. But have gotten no response from the SASS office.

Seems they are not interested in getting a defibrillator donated. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Must be getting old. I remember a requirement that a club putting on a major event needed to have a documented plan for the match. I thought it included a safety plan for the match but now I can not find it. Regardless I sure believe any club putting on a major match needs to have a documented plan for the match including the safety plan for the match which would include how such things as major medical issues (ie overheated issues, stroke, heart attack, wounds, cuts, etc.). It should also identify the medical evacuation plan. It should identify the on site medical resources avail and exact location. It should identify whom to contact off site in an emergency and by whom. If shooters just pick up the cell and start calling a lot of confusion can exist since shooting ranges many times do not have street addresses that can be found by an emergency vehicle. Heck I had to have an emergency RV repair company come to Winter Range at Ben Avery and work on my RV this year and it took 5 calls to get them to the proper campground and location. Plan should identify exactly who should be contacting emergency medical support and exactly where that support should be going, with all telephone numbers. Plan should include who at match should be notified immediately should a medical issue occur. Ia am sure there are more but you get the idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GCK,

 

Is the following what you are referring to. It is on p. 1-2 of the ROII.

"Before the Match Prior to each and every match, a briefing shall be conducted by the club’s match director, range master or designated club official. Posse Marshals/Leaders and other Range Officers with officiating duties must attend. The briefing should include the following topics:

MEDICAL ASSISTANCE PLAN A plan to assist any injured shooter or spectator must be in place in the event of an emergency. All Range Officers should know the procedure for contacting medical services. These procedures shall also be posted or published to facilitate a timely response. These plans shall include how to obtain emergency medical assistance, the location of first aid equipment, and the name of the assigned Medical Information Officer. All Range Officers shall have the telephone number and know the physical location of the medical facility. In some areas, 911 is not necessarily the most appropriate number to call. When SASS events are held in remote areas, or during events with large numbers of shooters and/or spectators, it is advisable to have trained emergency responders on site, whenever possible. As a further precaution, it is also recommended that SASS clubs and matches consider gaining access to a portable Automated External Defibrillator (AED) and other emergency medical supplies, if professional medical services are unavailable.

SAFETY EVACUATION PLAN A well thought out plan of evacuation shall be in place in the event of an emergency requiring the timely evacuation of an injured shooter or spectator. The match director or designated club officer (medical information officer) shall be responsible for maintaining and implementing the safety evacuation plan.

SPECTATOR AND NON-SHOOTER SAFETY All Range Officers shall be informed of the plan of action for non-shooting participants’ control and safety. These aspects shall include a line of demarcation for non-shooters, areas of required eye and ear protection, and the availability of eye and ear protection on the range (either free or for a very nominal fee)."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to thank everyone for their honest input on this topic. The truth of the matter is we need some type of standard put in place for the big matches EOT, WR, Regionals and State Matches.

 

my suggestions,

 

1. contract an independent squad for main match days or your local ems, fire department (add additional money needed to each entry)

2. AED

3. protocol announced at every safety meeting of what to do, who to call…..

 

These are what I will take to powers that be...

 

If you have others post them please!

Thanks, Your humble servant Vance Montana

Recently I had an opportunity at a major match to discuss this thread with the MD prior to main match as the side matches were getting started. I asked what the club's provision for emergency services are and was told, "there are a couple of trained guys who are shooting and a couple of doctors."

 

I asked if the club had an AED? "NO".... and we don't want to spend the money."

 

Then I asked if there would be any EMS/Fire on site during the match? "NO".

 

OK>...will he please identify the location of the medical emergency bag/kit as well as those trained guys and doctors at the AM mandatory safety meeting? "NO...they just come to shoot and they're really not interested in being identified."

 

OK>...how will we find those guys if something happens? "well, the range isn't THAT big." (200 shooters)

 

So the mandatory safety meeting came around and none of this was mentioned. It got me thinking that if I was a litigator how would I handle it if there was a wrongful death suit brought? LO AND BEHOLD! The angels sat me down next to a litigator with some nationally recognized success.

 

I axed him da same qweshhunns. I watched him lick his lips and smile...... :ph34r: ...."well..let's see... I'd demand a list of all shooters and start my investigator calling each one. 'Were you briefed as to a medical emergency plan at the safety meeting'....etc. etc. etc. "God knows in 200 shooters there is going to be a great witness or 3 in there somewhere."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GCK,

 

Is the following what you are referring to. It is on p. 1-2 of the ROII.

"Before the Match Prior to each and every match, a briefing shall be conducted by the club’s match director, range master or designated club official. Posse Marshals/Leaders and other Range Officers with officiating duties must attend. The briefing should include the following topics:

MEDICAL ASSISTANCE PLAN A plan to assist any injured shooter or spectator must be in place in the event of an emergency. All Range Officers should know the procedure for contacting medical services. These procedures shall also be posted or published to facilitate a timely response. These plans shall include how to obtain emergency medical assistance, the location of first aid equipment, and the name of the assigned Medical Information Officer. All Range Officers shall have the telephone number and know the physical location of the medical facility. In some areas, 911 is not necessarily the most appropriate number to call. When SASS events are held in remote areas, or during events with large numbers of shooters and/or spectators, it is advisable to have trained emergency responders on site, whenever possible. As a further precaution, it is also recommended that SASS clubs and matches consider gaining access to a portable Automated External Defibrillator (AED) and other emergency medical supplies, if professional medical services are unavailable.

SAFETY EVACUATION PLAN A well thought out plan of evacuation shall be in place in the event of an emergency requiring the timely evacuation of an injured shooter or spectator. The match director or designated club officer (medical information officer) shall be responsible for maintaining and implementing the safety evacuation plan.

SPECTATOR AND NON-SHOOTER SAFETY All Range Officers shall be informed of the plan of action for non-shooting participants’ control and safety. These aspects shall include a line of demarcation for non-shooters, areas of required eye and ear protection, and the availability of eye and ear protection on the range (either free or for a very nominal fee)."

Maybe that was what I was remembering. I have attended a whole lot of major multi day matches over the years including being a Posse Marshall for many up til a few years ago when I started declining. I really wonder if the above procedure is really being followed in a lot of places from what I have seen. I suppose many major shoots have a documented plan but doubt if few have actually read it. Some shoots at least say a word or two about safety at the shooters meeting and many Posse Marshall walk throughs, but mostly about not shooting over berms, stage related safety issues and shooting related safety issues. Medical safety is only rarely mentioned. At many shoots they have trained medical response folks that are shooters, but few have dedicated medical personnel on site for very large matches. Few have a large selection of medical supplies on site including AEDs, etc. I do know a few shooters that carry wound trauma kits in their gun carts. These friends work at ranges and know the risks. These kits are not that expensive. With SASS's aging population, many shooters are using blood thinners. A lot of slips and falls can cause large amounts of bleeding. At my adult son's first major shoot, he tripped over one shotgun target while resetting it and fell on another target and required 30 stitches to his knee/leg-he got excellent on site help (he did manage to return the next day and shoot the remaining 11 stages with one leg cut out of his pants). I have seen trauma kits stop bleeding quickly in all kinds of cuts at matches. I carry a drug store wound seal kit in my gun cart as I am on a blood thinner-it is just a package of powder you sprinkle over a large bleeding cut or scrape.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most big matches I have been to I don't hear anything like that.

 

 

Oakwood Outlaws does a great job of it at there big match.

 

They tell you who is the medical people there and what posse they are on.

Also where the phone is and that the emergency numbers are posted right by the phone

alone with the address of the place.

And if you have to make that call. To tell them you will have a flag person standing out

on the road to flag them where to turn into the range and others to flag them to the proper

location they need to go.

They cover it very will.

 

Only place I have seen it.

 

Not a bad idea for all clubs to think about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HI Folks,

 

Y'all come to the CA State, Western Regional, or Arroyo Cantua matches. Their safety briefings explain everything; who, what, when, where. They have detailed plans.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What makes a major match

Number of shooters?

Level of shoot, let's say state and above, or annual shoot vs monthly shoot?

 

A plan and the plan being addressed at the mandatory shooters meeting should be enough to cover many shoots in my most humble opinion

 

Some monthly shoots have more shooters than some high level shoots just due to surrounding population base to draw shooters from

 

I am surprised at folks holding such distain for medical doctors as a whole, there are good and not so good in every given profession

Wow, med school is not easy by any means, I can not imagine them graduating with out better knowledge of the human body, than the average joe the Plummer standing next to you at the loading table

 

Oh well!

 

Edit, I had thought that I had red more than one person paint MD's with a rather broad brush

My badd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some good news. Misty got back with me and said they would love to have one

on site.

 

So will try and get by the bank to set up the account for the funds to go to

in the next few days.

 

Then I will let you all know where to send the donations.

Hoping we can get the money raised fairly quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some good news. Misty got back with me and said they would love to have one

on site.

 

So will try and get by the bank to set up the account for the funds to go to

in the next few days.

 

Then I will let you all know where to send the donations.

Hoping we can get the money raised fairly quickly.

Put MADD mike down for $100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yul's in for $50.00

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What makes a major match

Number of shooters?

 

What ever match I'm at is a 'major match'....

 

Last weekend, there was only nine of us!!!! LOL :D

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just finished reading this entire thread. Thanks Vance for bring it to our attention. It was very much needed. Vance, you being a MD and a CLASSIC COWBOY, I respect your suggestions and I support your concerns and solutions.

 

Ghost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank Ghost,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Madd Mike, would you like to add to my above list of what is needed at big matches?

Vance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Vance and Palindrome,

 

Upon rereading my posts I realized I was letting my feelings about medical mistakes that occurred two years ago color my comments in a insulting manner.

 

I express my sincerest apologies as you both are obviously caring Pards.

Seldom, I appreciate your comments and respect your views.

Vance

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vance, I'll pledge $50 toward the defibrillator. Let us know when and where to contribute.

 

I'll even make a "break seal for access" case for it if you let me know the proper dimensions. Out of pine wood, a plastic front widow and a sealed door. Seal would be a soft lead .45 bullet slotted down the length to crimp over some soft copper wire thru a hasp. Hasp also big enough to run a padlock through for higher security when no events are being held at the ranch, if desired.

 

Mount it on the outside of the Nurse's shack, perhaps?

 

Good luck, GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry guys. But I have been super busy the last few day since we got the OK

from Misty and have not had time to run to the bank and set up the account.

 

But will be able to on Monday and let you all know where to send the funds.

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is one that Vance liked. And after talking with the company. I also

think this would be a good one. A little more that some. But it tells as well as shows

you what to do. And is very durable so could hold up to range use.

 

 

http://www.heartsmart.com/defibtech-lifeline-view-aed-defibrillator-p/dcf-a2310.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Nevada State Match is fortunate in that the nearest hospital is less than 3 miles from the range.

We request on the sign up sheet for folks to self identify if they have medical training and "if" they are willing to be a responder.

A list of these folks are placed in each posse book and what posse they are on.

 

We have a situation plan in place in regard to stabilization and communication with emergency medical services.

Including the responsible parties being aware of the best points on the range to have cell service and where to post folks to direct medical response and transport.

 

We are currently raising funds for an onsite AED for the cowboy discipline and for use by our parent range.

 

As for costs - my Father recently required air lift service from Pahrump, NV to Las Vegas

The bill for that 70 mile flight was in excess of $32,000

In conjunction with his medical issues - he has also recently had an ambulance ride.

His 8 mile ambulance ride was $2,800.

 

So before folks begin "demanding" this service and that service be available.

"And I won't return to a shoot because they don't have __________ on site"

Do a little research and tally the real costs of having an ambulance, an available helicopter, or 24/7 trained emergency medical response on site for a week.

It won't be an extra $10 or $20 per shooter.

You would have to triple or quadruple the match fees, minimum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep. Where I live it costs $800.00 just to start the engine and drive out of the garage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right on, Creeker.

 

Cost my insurance over $10K for a 200 mile helo evacuation from deep in the Utah canyon country, and that was 10 years ago! Probably at least $30K now.

 

Let's say the cost of standing by with a hot ambulance and crew all week during shooting hours was twice the cost of one run. Which would be cheap. Twice $5000 is $10K, divided over 600 shooters at EOT. That's $17 a shooter, minimum. Lotsa dough for being able to do an immediate evacuation about once every three years. All the rest of EOT's emergencies have been well handled by having an ambulance show up when called (as far as I have seen, and I've been at all the NM EOTs). The two deaths at Founders Ranch (all I am aware of, and both heart related) have been either after shooting hours or when EOT was not yet underway - an ambulance would probably not have been on site for either of those.

 

A defib unit, some training on recognizing stroke, heat exhaustion, dehydration, diabetes attack. asthma attack, and a good quality gunshot trauma kit would go a long way to filling the gap for a small fraction of the cost of a standby ambulance. (Is a life worth lots more - sure. Is it reasonable to have folks pay for that service - not even close to being sure about that).

 

Good luck, GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Madd Mike, would you like to add to my above list of what is needed at big matches?

Vance

I am donating $100.00 towards anvil ALS project

I think that a well thought out plan, posted, and mentioned at shooters meetings goes a long way

As for shoots that can put together on on site ambulance, than more power to them

 

I have put on state championship black powder and wild bunch shoots, the shoot numbers are low compared to many quote big shoots

But the mention that state and above shoots should be mandated to?

It would kill those type shoots

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Vance,

As the EMT with you for one of those patients I did notice how long it took to get the ambulance there, and how long they stayed on scene (but that's a different story). I would certainly support having an AED onsite. For the size of the event and age of the SASS population an ambulance onsite is a fine idea. But I wonder if the response time we saw was normal or if the primary rig had been out on another call and saw the back-up crew. Edgewood Fire & Ambulance Service is a volunteer operation except for the paid paramedic. But I don't know if they are in station or responding from home, which would add about 5-10 minutes. My home town service cut response times greatly when we changed from responding from home to all crew in quarters.

 

At the VT State Shoot we have an EMT onsite (me) with an ambulance service and hospital 3 miles away. And I usually have an AED too. And a medical kit on each bay for anyone to use.

 

I know Helluva Rukus has an ambulance onsite and I believe they support that with raffle proceeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have set up a special account at Texas Star Bank in Anna Tx just

for this. ALL money will go to buy the defibrillator. I will stop taking donations

as soon as we reach out goal.

 

Make checks payable to

Defibrillator Fund

Mail to

Allen Carpenter

466 Oakhill Rd

Van Alstyne, Tx 75495

 

I will keep a close tab on it and as I said. As soon as we reach our

goal. Will stop taking donations. Anything that comes in after we reach

our goal will be mailed back to you.

But will keep it posted how we are doing.

 

Thanks so much

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.