Irish Red OToole, #48939 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 This came up today at a match. Stage had 4 shotgun targets at the end of the shooting string and the round count was the usual 4+. SG4 was not reset before the shooter got to it and no one noticed until the shooter was at the shotgun targets and firing. Shooter picks up shotgun and knocked over SG1 and SG2 with first two shots then missed everything with shot #3. The actual impact of shot #3 was between SG3 & SG4. Shooter reloaded and knocked over SG3. SG4 was already down. Shooter then reloaded a 5th round and shot near SG4 to end the stage. Here's the question. One side said 5th round didn't need to be fired because four shots were fired and four targets were down. The thinking being that the miss on shot #3 didn't hit anything and there was no way to know what the shooter intended on shot #3. The other side said a fifth round was necessary because SG4 hadn't been engaged....i.e. directly aimed at. Which side was right? Pale Wolf, you want to weigh in on this one? Or at least direct me (as the TG) to the appropriate section in the handbook to refer to? Not that it matters, but there was no call of any kind on the shooter on the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Were all targets down after the required 4minimum were fired? If so, that's all that he had to fire. If one was still standing, he needed to pick it up for a "clean" stage. If the target was broken, the call would have been "shoot where it was". Since the target was not set, it could be considered broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 No call. He had to engage all 4 targets. He did. He fired at SG4 as he should. He engage SG3 twice since he missed it first shot. No call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The question is whether or not that 5th round was necessary. Simplify it by altering actual events, one, two three are hits, fourth round on the downed targer is an obvious clean miss. Shoot where it was is in effect and who can say what golden BB would have taken it down if it were up. I guess I am in the 5th round not necessary camp, BUT have respect for the shooter making that 5th shot when perhaps he didn't have to. Looking forward to PWBs take on the matter. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 No penalty, this is not all that uncommon, unfortunately. Only the first four shots were required. TO should have said "shoot where the were" and any four shots (not hitting other type targets) would have been OK, IMO. EDIT. Apparently reading comprehension is not my strong suit tonight. As the 4th target was the only one down at the start (my mis-read), and the 3rd target did not go down with 3rd shot, then the fifth shot would be required to down SG4. Sorry - going to get some shuteye.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Notright SASS #60673 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The fith round was necessary to engage the 4th target. The shooter had to engage the third target twice (using his third and forth round) because the third target was missed and did not go down the first shot. Even though the 4th target was not reset and was already down the shooter still had to engage it by firing the 5th shot. Hoss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Assuming that the shooter reloaded after missing #3 because he KNEW he'd missed it? Or was the shooter TOLD to "load one more" after firing the 4th shot (with all targets DOWN at that point)? If he did it on his own, then there should be no "sides" re: what was done...IMO. How far apart were #3 & #4? Was there a specified order of engagement for the SG targets (e.g. sweep from one end to the other?) Or simply KD all SG targets? How about some more information. Bottom line is that 4+ shots were fired & all targets were down at the end of the shooting string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The fith round was necessary to engage the 4th target. The shooter had to engage the third target twice (using his third and forth round) because the third target was missed and did not go down the first shot. Even though the 4th target was not reset and was already down the shooter still had to engage it by firing the 5th shot. Hoss This is pretty much where I stand on this one...pending any additional information to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Hoss, that would be true if there was a specified order to the shotgun string. Around here shotgun targets are most often 'any order' and the OP didn't say if any order was required or not, and generally if it ain't spelled out, any order is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Additional information needed - Was the targets to be engaged in a specific order? If the instructions were to knock down targets in any order, then the fist 4 shots were all that would be needed. If the instructions were to knock engage S1, S2, S3, S4, then the fifth shot would have been required in order to count target S4 as hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I'm of the opinion that he has to engage all four targets. After missing S3 and shooting the fourth shot again at S3, he has not engaged S4. A fifth shot is required to engage S4. Johnny Meadows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checotah Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 The missing piece of info, as already addressed, is the target engagement order. If no specified order, ala engage 4 shotgun until down, then the 5th round was not needed. If, on the other hand, it was engage 1 through 4, then the 5th was required even though the target was already down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 This came up today at a match. Stage had 4 shotgun targets at the end of the shooting string and the round count was the usual 4+. SG4 was not reset before the shooter got to it and no one noticed until the shooter was at the shotgun targets and firing. Shooter picks up shotgun and knocked over SG1 and SG2 with first two shots then missed everything with shot #3. The actual impact of shot #3 was between SG3 & SG4. Shooter reloaded and knocked over SG3. SG4 was already down. Shooter then reloaded a 5th round and shot near SG4 to end the stage. Here's the question. One side said 5th round didn't need to be fired because four shots were fired and four targets were down. The thinking being that the miss on shot #3 didn't hit anything and there was no way to know what the shooter intended on shot #3. The other side said a fifth round was necessary because SG4 hadn't been engaged....i.e. directly aimed at. Which side was right? Pale Wolf, you want to weigh in on this one? Or at least direct me (as the TG) to the appropriate section in the handbook to refer to? Not that it matters, but there was no call of any kind on the shooter on the stage. How do we know the 3rd shot was not aimed at SG4.......goes to intent. Without a shooting order I'm going with 4 is enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 4 were all that were needed to put 4 targets down and satisfy stage instructions. When are we going to quit with this "intent"? Just give me the overall buckle....I always INTEND to win it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Additional information needed - Was the targets to be engaged in a specific order? If the instructions were to knock down targets in any order, then the fist 4 shots were all that would be needed. If the instructions were to knock engage S1, S2, S3, S4, then the fifth shot would have been required in order to count target S4 as hit. The missing piece of info, as already addressed, is the target engagement order. If no specified order, ala engage 4 shotgun until down, then the 5th round was not needed. If, on the other hand, it was engage 1 through 4, then the 5th was required even though the target was already down. Reckon I'm in this camp if no shotgun order was specified.. Only needed 4 Rance Thinkin' the shooter kinda' took care of himself tho.. Shot his 5th. round ta make sure.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Sigh...if there was a shooting order then the shooter would have earned a "P" since 4 was down before 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 SG4 was down before SG1 was engaged.............so are you saying the shooter earned a P at the buzzer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 No.... saying that when he shot at 3 he missed it....and 4 was down which scored 4. In this case the 'golden bb' that would have scored 4 down in a 'no order' scenario, would instead be a FAT TURD. sucks to be you..... next shooter... although we already know that in SASS it would never actually be scored that way on appeal as it would hurt someone's feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Sigh...if there was a shooting order then the shooter would have earned a "P" since 4 was down before 3. NO...if there was a shooting order (e.g. 1-2-3-4), the shooter did as required (see post #7) Without additional info (like from the SHOOTER), we don't know for sure. Shooter shoots #1 & #2...shoots AT #3 & misses it... then KD's #3; followed by "engaging" #4 by shooting where it was. What's so hard about that? Why penalize the shooter by applying some kind of "benefit? of doubt" and/or a golden BB in the direction of #4 for that third shot that didn't hit anything? The SHOOTER knows what & why he did what he did...if it cost him an extra shot... ...what's the question again? That's like giving a Buckaroo a hit on a KD when the impact was 6 feet to one side...it there is no doubt, the should be no benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 For the same reason that he doesn't actually have to hit 4 to score 4. It's already down. And we've argued 'golden BB' on these pages until we're blue in the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 So you'd give him a "P" by applying INTENT that the 3rd shot was for #4?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Just mail me that 1st place buckle & save me the gas & ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 NO... not intent... he shot... and 4 is down. that's not intent...that's what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 And, I sure didn't intend to miss that rifle target, soze it's clean!!!!! har! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Since SG4 was down from the beginning.........and applying your logic.......you can never prove the SG4 target was knocked down.......so after using all shells it never falls the shooter earns a "Miss" along with a "P" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 and I didn't intend to forget my shotshells eethur, clean!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Since SG4 was down from the beginning.........and applying your logic.......you can never prove the SG4 target was knocked down.......so after using all shells it never falls the shooter earns a "Miss" along with a "P" That's logic? Rules don't say you have to PROVE SG4 was knocked down. I'm sure you can look it up. SG4 is IN FACT down. Stage conventions state to 'shoot where it was'... stage conventions DO NOT say that you have to actually hit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Additional information needed - Was the targets to be engaged in a specific order? If the instructions were to knock down targets in any order, then the fist 4 shots were all that would be needed. If the instructions were to knock engage S1, S2, S3, S4, then the fifth shot would have been required in order to count target S4 as hit. The missing piece of info, as already addressed, is the target engagement order. If no specified order, ala engage 4 shotgun until down, then the 5th round was not needed. If, on the other hand, it was engage 1 through 4, then the 5th was required even though the target was already down. I'm in this camp. We need to know if the shotgun target order was specified in the stage instructions. If no target order, only four shots required. If order was specified as targets 1-4, then the fifth shot would have been necessary. Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Mike SASS #38824 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 If no order was specified and the targets were down after 4 shots, shooter is done. If he wants to send another round down range, then he is ok too since it specifies 4+ .... Next shooter. Not making calls based on the perceived intent of the shooter - personally not real good at that mind reading stuff. Just as a point of interest - with one shotgun target left, it is not unusual to see a double shooter finish it off with two quick rounds - you just get the extra time for some extra fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 If no order was specified and the targets were down after 4 shots, shooter is done. If he wants to send another round down range, then he is ok too since it specifies 4+ .... Next shooter. Not making calls based on the perceived intent of the shooter - personally not real good at that mind reading stuff. Just as a point of interest - with one shotgun target left, it is not unusual to see a double shooter finish it off with two quick rounds - you just get the extra time for some extra fun. Imma tuu cheep tu waste that shot!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Imma tuu cheep tu waste that shot!!!!! Who are you kiddin', GAMER... .that extra shot adds an extra .25 and you wouldn't do that on a bet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 NO... not intent... he shot... and 4 is down. that's not intent...that's what happened. That makes no sense at all. #4 was already down. He shot & MISSED #3 (was that his INTENT? only the shooter knows...but how can we assume his INTENT was to apply shot #3 to the already-down #4 target?) A MISS cannot cause a P...no target was HIT with that shot, so there can be NO PROCEDURAL. ...re-engaged & HIT #3; then shot @ #4 "where it was". How many times must this be repeated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 IROT...next time you have a "WtC?" that you want me to address, please PM or email me directly. Please also include ALL pertinent information regarding the "incident". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Don't get testy with me or I'll get the Red Book out....(wait! wait! wait!...forgot the ) We're not talking about the OP here. Yes, 4 is already down HOWSOMEVER.... if the stage instructions are 1,2,3,4 in order and the shooter misses 3 )(it remains standing after the shot) then 4 is down... you can't argue against that..."4 is already down", PWB ... therefore, in an attempt to apply LOGIC (yes, I'm being the devil's advocate here) then 4 is down before 3. And in an "IN ORDER" stage instruction that is (logically) a "P". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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