Captain Clark Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 This past weekend I had two Remington gun club hulls that separated heads from main body while practicing. Both rounds fired and took the main body out to the forcing cone while leaving the metal head right where it was suppose to be. Nothing exceptional about the reloads or Stoeger double gun, and all other STS, Nitro, AA etc performed correctly. Well back to the house and out to the shop where we performed some pull tests on the same hulls. The conclusion is that the gun club head which is steel, is noticeably easier to pull off the hull than the STS, Nitro with brass heads! The testing consisted of putting hull in vise, and pulling on rim of case head to see how much effort it took to achieve head separation. Has anybody else experienced this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Factory new or reloads? LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 I ounce reloads. Like I stated, light Clays load, nothing exceptional. As far as I know, the first time for the hulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Does sound strange. Did you use the correct wad, power etc? I reload them all the time and have never had any issue. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 This does sound strange. We use 1000s of Gun Club reloads at our trap club each month, primarily for Doubles/Singles reloads (typically 1 or 1 -1/8 loads at 1145-1200 fps loads, but many also load them 3DR+), with multiple reloads till we start to see case cracking (~5-6 reloads, dependng). I personally shoot 150-200 or so a week. We have NOT seen the problem you mention, wonder if you had a bad lot? The GCs are NOT as strong as the NITROs/STS, but still great hulls for loads in excess of the normal SASS reloads (Non-Warthog). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 If your column height is too high, during the crimping stage the rolled over hull during final crimp will pull the hull body loose from the base. During reloading, check to make sure the column height is at or just below the old final crimp line in the hull. ----------------------------- Note: Harvey Mushman 825 12ga rounds where completed. So is all the rest. I'll get information to you tomorrow or Friday. CH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Thanks Cliff. Our two trap club reloaders have had their presses set for a long time, with no problems - your explanation makes great sense! And thanks for the update on the BP shells, and good luck tomorrow! Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 I'm not really worried and expect things to go well. All in all, Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 This happened to a pard at one of our local shoots this past summer. It was with factory new loads. On one the plastic piece went almost 3 inches down the barrel. The unloading table officer just happened to see it when checking the shotgun. I posted on here before about it. He had 4 of them do it from the same box. He then stopped using them and another pard gave him ammo to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 I've seen a half dozen factory Gun Clubs seperate in the last yesr. All different guns and shooters. Use to be my favorite hull to reload . Now I 'm sticking with STS's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Jim Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 This is a "Known" problem with Gun Club shells. The best hulls for reloading are the Remmy STS or Nitro as they are injection molded and are one piece. They may cost a little more on Gunbroker, but there is a reason why. They are the most desirable hull available today for reloading. Just my two cents worth. Waco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 This has been a problem since early 2012. I sent four cases back for the same reason. At that time, Remmington stated that it was a primer problem. It seems to me that they could have found and fixed the problem in this amount of time. My advice is not to use them at any big matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Thanks for the heads up. I never reload those hulls, but I use zillions of factory ones at the Trap field. I have never had a problem with factory gun clubs, but I will remain vigilant. Part of a hull halfway down the barrel could make a dandy barrel obstruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Bud Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 I had the same thing happen a couple of years ago with factory loaded Federal universals. I believe it was while using my Stoeger. I kept the hull as a souvenir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheatin' Chamberlin Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 Some good info here. I have over 1,000 of these hulls. I really like them do to the simple fact is that I can reload them muliple times with BP. I have not had this happen to me. Does anyone know if there is way to check them prier to reloading them? I also have about 500 of the black high velocity Remington hulls. Has anyone had problems with them as well? Cheatin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted December 5, 2013 Author Share Posted December 5, 2013 Glad it isn't just me. The column height is the same , and I haven't changed from the same load on the same machine for some time which caused me to recheck. Thanks for every ones response as it will let me sleep better knowing its not that rare. I have been using these as practice rounds in the double and the 97, only STS or Nitro gold for matches for me during most matches. Thanks again fellas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 CC, how many times have these cases been reloaded, before the issue shows? LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheatin' Chamberlin Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 CC, how many times have these cases been reloaded, before the issue shows? LG +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 CC, how many times have these cases been reloaded, before the issue shows? LG See post #3. I never heard of this problem but will be on the lookout in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 THX. I load mixed brand on my 38 yo, Mec 600 jr press. Never have any issue with those cases. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 This has happened to a number of local shooters out here with factory Rem. Gun Club target loads, including this shooter. Seems to be more prevalent on the ones with # 7.5 shot. I have shoot a lot of the ones with #8 shot without problems. I am shooting them out of a TTN hammered double but have seen the same thing happen on Stoegers and other hammerless doubles. . On big matches I am going back to STS target loads. Remington definitely has a problem with these shells. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted December 5, 2013 Share Posted December 5, 2013 It is too bad that the quality of these hulls is rather poor as it is one of two hulls availible in SWEET 16 gauge at a reasonable price .. The other being Federal ,,,, the Federal hull will last through 3-4 reloads with 3F blackpowder .... The Remington hulls are luckly to make it for a second reload ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Jim Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 In our game of schucking and reloading as fast as we can, and it does not matter, SXS or '97, the Gun Club's are dangerous. Most fast shooters would not notice if only the brass base was all that was ejected. Loading another shell behind a seperated shot shell can be a dangerous gamble, especially if parts of the hull are still in the bore. Remington does not care if their hulls can be reloaded once or a dozen times, in fact, they would raher sell you new factory shells. The issues with Gun Club shells will continue until the buying public stops buying them, it's as simple as that. While I'm on my soapbox, I'll rant a bit about the Winchester AA HS hulls which has their own set of problems with hull separation, and other issues especially with low powder volume which we use with our cowboy loads. Winchester at one time manufactured a one piece hull with a brass base, that hull was sought after by reloaders as the cadillac hull to reload back in the day. Remington also made one piece hulls and continue even today. There is a reason why once fired Remington STS or Nitro hulls sell for almost twice the price of Winchester AA on Gunbroker. Waco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Most fast shooters would not notice if only the brass base was all that was ejected. How did you arrive at that conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted December 6, 2013 Author Share Posted December 6, 2013 Well after reading through some more replies, It seems that I might not be a "fast" shooter??? I have to say thanks for stating what I already knew! Anyway, thanks to Cliff Hanger for the advice on load column height, and LG I also use a couple of the same loaders. They are great machines with seldom a hiccup, which is why I was at a loss for answers. The last item is that the STS, Nitro, and gun club are all similar in construction, only real difference in construction is the rim metal being either brass, steel or brass plated steel in the case of the Peters blue hulls. They are identical in injection molding construction aspects, as I have torn several ....er lots apart since the weekend. I have figured out that it has to be blamed on the following 1= the shooter 2= lousy shotgun 3= poor loading technique 4=poor load data 5= Worn out hulls 6=inferior hull quality Let me state here and now that I will work hard on trying to correct the first 5 reasons by convincing Ocotillo Annie that I need better guns, better loaders, more powder, better primers, better hulls, and proper shooting technique learned through days of very extensive practice at a secluded undisclosed location far from bothersome interruptions! If I am in need of support, I hope that my fellow saddle tramp pards will back me up with the lady! Oh yea, she does shoot 45's also, no pea shooters she say ! Thanks again to all you pards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Gardner Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 This happed to me with a one time reload after calling Remington they said they had a problem with a set-up of a machine. The STS's and the Nitro and Gun Clubs are of the same design but use diffrent matrials, Brass, steel, and plastices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 With any once fired shot shells except ACTIV's, run your finger down the case. You will feel that the bases are not tight against the hull. Kind of like a center fire round that has not been roll crimped. Same principle with shot shells - the base has to be crimped again to tighten it to the hull. The MEC SizeMaster does an excellent job crimping the bases so when you run your finger down the case - no base ridge sticking out - they are smooth. Regardless of the brand of once fired that I shoot - they are SizeMaster crimped before the primer goes in and have never had a base separation Another advantage crimping bases with the MEC is all shotgun chambers are exactly the same diameter and your once fired shells were shot in someone else's shotgun. So crimp the bases and you'll be amazed how easily they shuck from your shotgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Most fast shooters would not notice if only the brass base was all that was ejected. Waco Don't bet on that silliness. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 With any once fired shot shells except ACTIV's, run your finger down the case. You will feel that the bases are not tight against the hull. Kind of like a center fire round that has not been roll crimped. Same principle with shot shells - the base has to be crimped again to tighten it to the hull. The MEC SizeMaster does an excellent job crimping the bases so when you run your finger down the case - no base ridge sticking out - they are smooth. Regardless of the brand of once fired that I shoot - they are SizeMaster crimped before the primer goes in and have never had a base separation Another advantage crimping bases with the MEC is all shotgun chambers are exactly the same diameter and your once fired shells were shot in someone else's shotgun. So crimp the bases and you'll be amazed how easily they shuck from your shotgun Great point JB. I will reiterate that we shoot thousands of these (reloads) at our trap club and have not had one separate, that we know of. Our two club reloaders both resize with the Mech tool - perhaps that is the difference with other's experiences...... I have purchased the Mech resizer for my own use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Bristol Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I noticed everyone talking about them seperating after reloading. The ones I mentioned above were not reloads but NEW shells. They were fire in a SxS and the first was not noticed until the reload table when the firearm was being picked up off table. If the unloading table officer did not happen to see the shell 3 -4 inches down the tube it could have been a problem on next stage. I can only imagine how hard it would be to spot this problem on a pump especially during shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Jim Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Don't bet on that silliness. LG I recall once while shooting trap, on of my squad mates experienced a hull separation using Federal paper target loads. He was shooting a model 12 and the brass base was ejected un-noticed until attempting to load the next round. The separated tube was stuck in the forcing cone and the next shell would not chamber. I don't recall if the shot sounded louder, or if the shooter noticed more recall. Apparently not because he would have continued to shoot if the next round would have chambered. In my opinion, sizing the hull during reloading would not prevent the separation. During firing the hull would expand to the size of the chamber and negate any benefit of sizing the hull. After firing the steel base will not return to it's original size like the brass base will do. Sizing the steel base hulls may be a benefit for ease of loading a cowboy gun. There is a variable going on with the Gun Clubs causing the separation and some would say it's the steel base. Of the other discount shells marketed by Remmy, they too have steel bases but don't have the reputation of separation like the Gun Clubs. If I were reloading Gun Clubs for the cowboy game I would give serious consideration to changing to another hull. Waco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I noticed everyone talking about them seperating after reloading. The ones I mentioned above were not reloads but NEW shells. They were fire in a SxS and the first was not noticed until the reload table when the firearm was being picked up off table. If the unloading table officer did not happen to see the shell 3 -4 inches down the tube it could have been a problem on next stage. I can only imagine how hard it would be to spot this problem on a pump especially during shooting. BB, that IS scary. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Bud Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I noticed everyone talking about them seperating after reloading. The ones I mentioned above were not reloads but NEW shells. They were fire in a SxS and the first was not noticed until the reload table when the firearm was being picked up off table. If the unloading table officer did not happen to see the shell 3 -4 inches down the tube it could have been a problem on next stage. I can only imagine how hard it would be to spot this problem on a pump especially during shooting. The one that came apart on me was a new factory load as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 The one that came apart on me was a new factory load as well. DANG Bud, That is scary stuff. Maybe I just been lucky(after all, I am married to "Ima" ). Going to pull those shells out of my 'stash'...... LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Well I was loading some more 16 ga once-fired "Gun Club" hulls last night ,using one of my MEC loaders .... I was really paying attention to hull quality from crimp to base and have desided that rather than risk failure I will load them once and then trash them .... Even though my Scottish heritage abhors the waste... And I will not be buying more new shells of the Remington Brand .... There 3 inch magnum Steel loads are Junk as well... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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