Is there a call?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Now if I have your permission I have got to go see my gunsmith to have the hammers removed from my 97's and 87's

 

I'll have to double check the rules, because I know hammers can be reprofiled. I am just not sure if it is against the rules to remove them or not...

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I'll have to double check the rules, because I know hammers can be reprofiled. I am just not sure if it is against the rules to remove them or not...

 

to quote Utah Bob:

 

"Go ahead!"

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...then let us all know how that works out for ya.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

BTW - there is one very significant word in the SASS definition of "DRY FIRING" that y'all might want to consider.

 

REF: RO1 p.29

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

UNLOADED!

 

Stan

[Grizzly Dave]

Dry firing–defined as the act of bringing of an unloaded firearm into a shooting position, cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger as if to cause the gun to fire normally.

OK, so by that definition loading your pistol at the loading table, pulling the hammer back to full cock and pulling the trigger is not dry firing. It's not unloaded and probably not brought into firing position.

So, help me to understand here....

Bringing a loaded rifle with an empty chamber to your shoulder, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger is an SDQ. Not for dry firing, as the rifle is loaded as defined by "any firearm with unfired round(s) in action/chamber/magazine. So it would be for unsafe gun handling?

But

Loading a pistol at the loading table, pulling the hammer to full cock and pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall normally is not?

I have seen rifles on the line eject an unfired round when first levered, but not very often, but at least in this example the rifle is pointed down range towards the target/berm.

I have seen far more pistols at the loading table that did not have an empty chamber under the hammer. And also when the hammer was lowered the pistol is often not in firing position, rather nearly on the table with muzzle pointing at the table or other guns. If the hammer had simply been turned loose by pulling the trigger, an AD would have resulted.

Am I misunderstanding something here? Seems like the action more likely to result in an AD is a no call, and the action less likely to is an SDQ.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

If going to the line, cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger of a firearm that has round in the magazine it is not dry firing what is it? Wet firing?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

...

OK, so by that definition loading your pistol at the loading table, pulling the hammer back to full cock and pulling the trigger is not dry firing. It's not unloaded and probably not brought into firing position.

True...same as dropping the hammer on a rifle at the LT (either before or after loading)...as long as it's not "brought into a firing position" (see further comment below)

The purpose of that definition was to discourage shooters from doing so BEFORE loading (due to a previous accident at the LT).

IMO...doing so AFTER loading a firearm would result in the same penalty (SDQ) for "unsafe firearm handling"

So, help me to understand here....

Bringing a loaded rifle with an empty chamber to your shoulder, cocking the hammer, and pulling the trigger is an SDQ. Not for dry firing, as the rifle is loaded as defined by "any firearm with unfired round(s) in action/chamber/magazine. So it would be for unsafe gun handling?

In the OP, the penalty is for DECOCKING in an 'unapproved manner'.

But

Loading a pistol at the loading table, pulling the hammer to full cock and pulling the trigger and letting the hammer fall normally is not?

Dropping the hammer on a (presumed empty) chamber at the LT would technically NOT be considered "dry firing" under the rule, if the firearm is considered "loaded" under that definition.

BUT...that could also be considered "unsafe firearm handling", subject to the same SDQ.

I have seen rifles on the line eject an unfired round when first levered, but not very often, but at least in this example the rifle is pointed down range towards the target/berm.

I have seen far more pistols at the loading table that did not have an empty chamber under the hammer. And also when the hammer was lowered the pistol is often not in firing position, rather nearly on the table with muzzle pointing at the table or other guns. If the hammer had simply been turned loose by pulling the trigger, an AD would have resulted.

Am I misunderstanding something here? Seems like the action more likely to result in an AD is a no call, and the action less likely to is an SDQ.

 

While at the Loading Table, shooters must be allowed to make corrections as necessary to be sure no round is under the firing pin and hammers are fully down on empty chambers without the assessment of a penalty.

RO1 p.10

 

...thinking this one might need a bit of rewriting to clarify the actual INTENT of the rule.

 

Currently working out the final details for the Summit agenda...will get back to y'all on this one.

 

PWB

 

(still curious as to how them shotguns are gonna work without hammers)

[Grizzly Dave]

OK, thanks.

 

As I said before, folks I've been around carefully lower hammers on both rifles and pistols at the loading table, and the thought of someone just pulling the trigger and letting it fall with a loaded gun a foot away from me as LTO is not something I want to do/see.

 

Thanks for taking the time to clarify things as best you can given the current rules and whatnot.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Unsafe gun handling makes sense. However, I am sure some will argue there is nothing unsafe about cocking and dropping the hammer in the situation descrbed.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

OK, thanks.

 

As I said before, folks I've been around carefully lower hammers on both rifles and pistols at the loading table, and the thought of someone just pulling the trigger and letting it fall with a loaded gun a foot away from me as LTO is not something I want to do/see.

 

Thanks for taking the time to clarify things as best you can given the current rules and whatnot.

I ALWAYS lever the gun; check the chamber and then PULL THE TRIGGER. I NEVER lower the hammer carefully....EVER.... as in NEVER EVER... that hammer is absolutely unquestionably 100% down. It can't ever be at 1/2 cock on any gun....'97, '73, '92 etc. etc. etc. if you just pull the trigger.

 

Are you saying that it is a SDQ to pull the trigger at the LT? Or that you are opposed that anyone would pull the trigger or risk an UNSAFE GUN HANDLING penalty?

 

SINCE WHEN?

[Grizzly Dave]

King, rifle I don't have a big problem with.

 

A pistol that has just been loaded and not checked, yes, that would make me very uncomfortable.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

So... if while loading...a shooter loads 5 and then somehow slip- hammers accidentally (let's say) you'll call the shooter for an UNSAFE GUNHANDLING at the LT...SDQ.

 

Is that correct?

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I'm witn Brother King. I always pull the trigger allowing the hammer to fall unimpeded at the Loading Table on both rifle and '97 shotgun. I even do it occasionally with a revolver. As he says, no chance of ending up on the safety notch that way. Call it a SDQ on me and we will be going to the MD in a hurry

[Grizzly Dave]

King, rifle I don't have a big problem with.

 

A pistol that has just been loaded and not checked, yes, that would make me very uncomfortable.

 

 

So... if while loading...a shooter loads 5 and then somehow slip- hammers accidentally (let's say) you'll call the shooter for an UNSAFE GUNHANDLING at the LT...SDQ.

 

Is that correct?

 

Well, re-reading my post before submitting, I realize you might have been saying something different than I first thought.

 

If you are asking if I think that some one who is loading, who has the hammer slip out of their control while attempting to carefully lower it should be penalized for unsafe gun handling, then my answer is this by way of my own experience, I had that very thing happen to me, and I flat asked the LTO if there should be a penalty for it as neither he, nor I had checked for a live round under hammer yet, had there been one, it would have put a hole in something. He said I don't think there is, just take a lesson from it, and I did. I would not have appealed if it had been called unsafe handling and given an SDQ. Is it only unsafe if it goes bang?

 

And now my initial reply which may or may not be relevant:

 

Not at all, as I said, if someone loads a pistol, cocks the hammer and pulls the trigger at the loading table that I'd rather not be standing right next to them, that's all. No rule currently that I know of that says they can't do it though. Is it enough to be called 'unsafe gun handling?' I'll let the ROC address that if they so wish. I think it is worth further discussion by them though.

 

As far as someone on the line who has to go around a second time for that last round, could well be a slip hammer, half hammer whatever you want to call it, they do it now and then, the BOD goes to the shooter, do it often and most TOs I know would be watching for a slip hammer and if not observed would offer some coaching on loading technique. As far as assessing a penalty, it would be failure to adhere to loading procedures which is also a SDQ, but I think that it would be very difficult for a TO to be dead certain that is what happened to assess the penalty.

 

As I also said before I've seen enough live rounds under hammer at the LTO to make me wary. Had the shooters in question full cocked and pulled the trigger instead of carefully lowering the hammer, there would have been an AD with the gun pointing at the table and possibly the long guns laying on the table in front of them.

 

Lastly Brother King, you decide yet if yer coming to Nevada yet?

[Blastmaster]

-0

 

I'm witn Brother King. I always pull the trigger allowing the hammer to fall unimpeded at the Loading Table on both rifle and '97 shotgun. I even do it occasionally with a revolver. As he says, no chance of ending up on the safety notch that way. Call it a SDQ on me and we will be going to the MD in a hurry

Why would you pull the trigger on your 97 to drop the hammer at the ULT? You have to stage your 97 SG on the FL,,,, "open & empty".

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

-0

 

Why would you pull the trigger on your 97 to drop the hammer at the ULT? You have to stage your 97 SG on the FL,,,, "open & empty".

 

Pretty sure that HJ does that according to WBAS rules (which involver loading the '97 at the LT).

 

Here's another one that'll get y'all's drawers in a twist:

Since "dry firing" (under SASS rules) involves BOTH dropping the hammer + having the firearm in a "shooting position" (i.e. shouldered and/or aiming across the LT)

What about those of us that shoot SG from the hip...and full-fledged OUTLAWS that do the same with both SG & revolvers???

 

 

time to take my meds...I might be back tomorrow.

[Wyatt]

(still curious as to how them shotguns are gonna work without hammers)

 

Took the hammer out of one of my 97. The one with 1013xxx serial number. Decided that I didn't need the trigger either. Sold them on the classifieds. Welded the firing pin so it sticks out the breach just a touch. I slam fire anyway. Gonna take it to the range tomorrow

 

Gunsmith called me crazy but I told him I was informed only outside hammered doubles could have cocked hammer on the firing line

 

I've got plans to fix my 87.......and I have already taken my Meds

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

You're not only at the TOP of "THE LIST", there are now 3 black stars by your name.

 

 

 

[Griff]

Why would you pull the trigger on your 97 to drop the hammer at the ULT? You have to stage your 97 SG on the FL,,,, "open & empty".

I'm sure Happy Jack's thinkin' of "WB". But, I do remember a couple of stages over the years that have had the shooter load two in the magazine of a '97 at the loading table, as the stage starts with the shotgun loaded, doubles were required to wait until they were on the line.

 

Intent is one of the most ellusive of ideas, especially so when you're trying to divine someone else's. One is expected to arrive at the loading table with unloaded guns. The understood intent in your approaching the loading table is to load your guns... not to practice the stage with your guns in hand. Hence the rule about no dry-firing. It can be both distracting and disconcerting to other shooters who are going thru their loading process and many times, getting their "game together", mentally shooting the stage, planning their moves and strategy for the stage. To have someone pick up their guns and do this manually is, in my non public cowardice parlance, RUDE.

 

Mis-indexing a Colt firearm and then dropping the hammer by simply pulling the trigger is a self-correcting action. Do it just once and it will stay with you for a VERY long time. Match DQs tend not to be forgotten. Also, your fellow shooters find it disconcerting and RUDE. Maybe more so than if you just stand there and point your guns at imaginary targets going "...bang, bang... bang..." ad nauseum while you dry fire your guns. Maybe?

 

Frankly, I'm a little surprised... when one leaves the loading table, one should be prepared to shoot the stage. Well... maybe just a little scared, but ready none, the less. The firing line is not the place nor the time to "check your sight picture"... You can look at your sights to make they're where you want to be without cocking the hammer.

 

Grizzly, the revolvers you'll mostly see mis-indexed are Rugers (excepting 3-screw models). And loading them does NOT involve cocking the gun. Follow the simple steps of; load one, skip one, load four, pull to full cock and pull the trigger will ALWAYS produce a "click", on properly functioning Colt type revolvers. It will also eliminate any possibility of leaving the loading table with a gun on half-cock or the safety notch.

 

If I may be so bold (and not being very PC, "public cowardly":

 

Our sport, by its very nature, has the potential to be dangerous and a serious accident can occur.

 

Every participant in a SASS match is expected to be a safety officer. Each shooter’s first

responsibility is for his or her own safe conduct, but all shooters are expected to remain alert for

actions by others that are unsafe.

 

Any Range Officer or shooter may confront any participant about an observed unsafe situation,

and it is expected the matter will quickly be corrected and not repeated. Any argument

concerning the correction of a safety related matter can be expected to result in that shooter being

ejected from the range.

If seen and not reported you're just endangering yourself and all other participants and spectators. If you're not up to making that call... stay home.

 

19. All shooters must demonstrate rudimentary familiarity and proficiency with the firearms

being used. Shooters are expected to perform within their capabilities at all times. SASS

matches are not the forums in which to learn basic firearms handling.

Some rules may seem nonsensical... but almost all of them have been the result of an incident that could have been avoided if the rule had been in place prior to that. Take the RO courses... even if you never intend to hold the timer. If nothing else, it will give you a better appreciation of the work the TOs do, but it will also help you understand the rules. If you still have trouble... take it again! You'll most likely learn something that escaped your attention the first time. Talk to your RO Instructor... the only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask.

[Grizzly Dave]

Griff, perhaps that has been your experience, but not necessarily mine.

[Blastmaster]

Pretty sure that HJ does that according to WBAS rules (which involver loading the '97 at the LT).

 

Here's another one that'll get y'all's drawers in a twist:

Since "dry firing" (under SASS rules) involves BOTH dropping the hammer + having the firearm in a "shooting position" (i.e. shouldered and/or aiming across the LT)

What about those of us that shoot SG from the hip...and full-fledged OUTLAWS that do the same with both SG & revolvers???

 

 

time to take my meds...I might be back tomorrow.

HJ may get in trouble cris-crossing between WBAS & SASS rules at a CAS event......just saying.

 

Don't furget ganster style..... skip the fine print and BOD and throw the book at them. LOL.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Took the hammer out of one of my 97. The one with 1013xxx serial number. Decided that I didn't need the trigger either. Sold them on the classifieds. Welded the firing pin so it sticks out the breach just a touch. I slam fire anyway. Gonna take it to the range tomorrow

 

Gunsmith called me crazy but I told him I was informed only outside hammered doubles could have cocked hammer on the firing line

 

I've got plans to fix my 87.......and I have already taken my Meds

Really?

As I recall, my double has cocked hammers every time I bring it to the line, and they ain't on the outside!

[Griff]

Really?

As I recall, my double has cocked hammers every time I bring it to the line, and they ain't on the outside!

 

AofH,

 

Most people are scared of what they can't see... but, since they can't see 'em they don't think about 'em!

 

Griff, perhaps that has been your experience, but not necessarily mine.

 

Maybe I shoulda said, "fumbled with..." all that fiddlin' around with the cylinder, trying to get lined up, "just so..." is what makes me nervous. Doan' get me wrong, I don't always just pull the trigger... but, when the LTO makes it nearly impossible for me to show my cylinder by sitting where I have to extend my gun hand out to full extension of the arm, it can be mighty hard to lower the hammer with my thumb and still keep the gun under what I consider "control." Lettin' the hammer down by thumb in that position almost always ends up with the gun rotating the barrel up to the sky, it's no longer pointed at the berm.

 

If I'm going to have an AD, I want it pointed at the berm, not the wild-blue yonder.

[Cypress Sun]

Took the hammer out of one of my 97. The one with 1013xxx serial number. Decided that I didn't need the trigger either. Sold them on the classifieds. Welded the firing pin so it sticks out the breach just a touch. I slam fire anyway. Gonna take it to the range tomorrow

 

I tried a unintentional version of this modification myself once. Didn't remove the trigger or hammer though.

 

As I recall.........it didn't work out too well. Ended up selling the hammer, trigger and what was left, for parts.

[Wyatt]

You're not only at the TOP of "THE LIST", there are now 3 black stars by your name.

 

 

 

 

I am so happy to receive this additional awar d.....HEY!!!!!!!!!!! I'm beginning to think being TOP of "The List" and the black stars are not good things

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I'm beginnin' to think yer a bit more astute than you let on.