Dillon 650 Primer feeder explosion.

[Paladin Ralph]

I had a primer explosion in my press today. I didnt think that possible, but it did. When I called to order new parts, they knew what I needed they told me how it started in the primer seating area then it was a chain reaction all the way up the primer tube. So that tells me this has happened to others. Lucky I only had about 30 primers left and they ruptured the tube when the blast expanded the tubbe to the ID size of its holder. I had to drive the tube out with a steel rod and hammer. The blast was so hot it melted the end of the follower about 2" up and I had to look all over my shop to find it after the explosion blew it out.

 

Dillon is replacing the parts and shipping them to me no charge.

 

Any one have any ideas how to prevent this?

[Bones Z]

Always be aware of how the press is operating, how it feels, and don't force anything? Forcing any press with primers present is a bad idea.

[Paladin Ralph]

I am aware I am working with explosives and nothing should be forced. It is build very strong, but if there is ever resistance, I stop and trouble shoot the problem as I do not want to casuse any unecessary ware.

 

I pushed to seat the primer like I have done thousands of times and KABOOM!

[Burt Blade, #25657]

Primers are essentially powered by an explosive, that is initiated by crushing. This is why Dillon armored the primer feeds of its presses.

 

A single primer is so energetic that the flash can jump the gap between the seating area and the feed tube. They readily chain-fire, so any loaded tube of them is a potential explosion waiting for improper handling to liven up your afternoon.

 

I second the motion of the previous poster. In case of malfunction or odd press behavior, stop and clear. Never give it that "one more little bit of oomph". On more than one occasion, a "sticky" moment on my press has caused a jump of mechanism, and a primer to jump up sideways in the seating cup or fall off into the mechanism. Ram that "whoopsie" home and you will get a nice loud noise to critique your press skills. If that flash is pointed anywhere near the bottom of the feed tube, the follower may wind up buried in your ceiling.

 

Everyone is wearing safety glasses when loading, as for any other power tool, right?

[Roger Rapid]

Paladin Ralph.

Glad you weren't hurt. Can you explain exactly what stage/operation you were in when the primer detonated? ...RR

[Buffalo Bill Mathewson, 37826]

I had a primer tube explosion on my 650 a few years back. I
had almost 100 large pistol primes in the tube when it blew. I have loaded
several thousand rounds since. I don’t have any idea what caused the blow up
but most the blast was directed upward. This is a good reminder always wear
safety glasses when reloading. Keep the powder measure lid on at all times as
well. Dillon did send a complete new primer tube set up at no charge as per
their No BS warranty. I still have a couple primer anvils stuck in my ceiling. They
had to pass right by the nose of the Kudu head on the wall above my loading bench.
I now run the press with a slowed motion during the primmer seating part of the
handle stroke.

[Paladin Ralph]

Roger, I was seatng the primer the way Bill is suggesting above, with a slow steady pressure. I always stop when there is resistance, there was none. There is a lot of force exzerted with that compound leverage so I try to be careful how I manage it..

 

The primer tube splite wide open the length of primers that were left, now its twice the diameter with a 1/8" rip up the side.

 

I guess Mike is smarter than we give him credit for, engineering it so the force would go up the tube. I guess if I had a case feeder, it would have scratched that too, but I dont have one. I like to check the brass before it goes in, so I hand feed.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Has happened to many folks - thousands. The 650 primer feed design does not isolate the primer being seated from the rest of the primers in the wheel and the tube by enough to prevent flash over if you detonate the one being seated. The 550 primer design has it's own weaknesses, but propagating a detonation up the primer feed tube is not one of them.

Federal primers are a common denominator. So much so that the first question Dillon techs used to ask was "Running Federals?" It mostly was "Yes" - probably still is. But, can most folks load Federals without a detonation - yes to that, too.

 

Keeping the rotary shell plate really clean and moving smoothly, and the primer feed wheel area clean, helps the press run better and stops several possible ways a primer detonates. Run the press SMOOTHLY, no jerky motion. Learn to feel each primer as it seats. A good press operator can tell a tight pocket and even a primer going in upside down or sideways. Stop when you feel the primer "feel weird."

 

Check that you have not let a little dirt or tumbling media fall down in the primer ram. That dents primers and can even set one off.

 

Check that the shell plate pockets are clean so that EVERY case can fit fully into the shell plate, not get hung up half-way in. Yes, the sizer die should center the case or catch the case mouth and crumple it, but sometimes the case is misaligned at the primer seating station to catch a primer rim and flip the little devil sideways.

 

Sensitivity to how your press is running is the real key, as there are several ways the 650 can act up. Know what is normal and what is "acting strange". Then have the discipline to stop and investigate when you get that weird feeling.

 

Oh, and ALWAYS keep your powder covered - whether in the measure or in the canister or even a "waste cup" sitting on the bench. You don't want half a pound of powder flaming up when the primers decide to raise the roof.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

[Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022]

I was going to ask what brand of primers....

[Paladin Ralph]

Thanks GJ for all the helpful information.

 

Yep, I was using Federal large pistol primers. This is not the first time I have had trouble with them. About a month ago I had to throw away a few hundred because they wouldnt feed in the large tube. I would have thought the diameter on them are all the same, but I guess not.

 

Having had the size problem makes me think they must subcontract out to various mfgs and mix them before boxing them or they have no quality control of their own product. Unfortunately in todays world most manfactures leave the quality control to the consumer, if it breaks, let them return it. This is not a good situation to be in dealing with explosives.

 

Yep. Buffalo Bill after reading your comment, I went out and checked my ceiling this morning and there they are 2-3 primer anvils.

 

FYI, I always keep my press clean. When I set it up or change calibers, I cycle it several times to be srue everything is smooth. The last thing I do is set the powder measure with my scale, then I blow everything off, (have compressor), and cycle it some more to make sure everything is running smooth before I load primers.

[Paladin Ralph]

Dillon claims you can load 600 rounds per hour with the 650. I have no intentions of trying to do that. I do about maybe 150-200 per hour because I am cauciouis, take my time and do not want any mistakes. I bought the 650 because of the powder checking capabilties because that makes the process safer. I put a little LED flashlignt I got at Harbor Freight on the center hole to light of the cases so I can see the powder or any visual problems. I am very safety concious and try to do every thing I can to be safe.

 

Even when you are careful @^# happens.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

Yep, I was using Federal large pistol primers. This is not the first time I have had trouble with them. About a month ago I had to throw away a few hundred because they wouldnt feed in the large tube. I would have thought the diameter on them are all the same, but I guess not.

 

Having had the size problem makes me think they must subcontract out to various mfgs and mix them before boxing them or they have no quality control of their own product. Unfortunately in todays world most manfactures leave the quality control to the consumer, if it breaks, let them return it. This is not a good situation to be in dealing with explosives.

 

 

Well, seeing as how you recently had a batch of oversize Fed primers, my first guess would be that just one of those primers could have gotten into your recent loading batch, and hung up enough to turn sideways, or perhaps hang when entering the primer pocket and then slam home when seating pressure was increased to nudge it into the pocket. Seeing that the detonation occurred on the primer (back) stroke rather than on the forward (rotation and upwards ram movement shoving the cases into the dies) tells me that you did not have a primer jam in the primer feed wheel and shear when the wheel rotated.

 

I really doubt Federal (Alliant) subs out any step of their primer manufacturing, except perhaps the compounding of the mix. I've seen some videos where they show their in-house primer manufacturing operation, and they draw their own primer cups in those.

 

Rather than just throwing out bad primers, you can try contacting Federal, and sometimes they will issue a voucher for replacement primers. I tried that on a bad lot of Fed 209A shotgun primers several years ago, and didn't get any satisfaction, so it may be the luck of the draw, as others have reported good results from their complaints.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Paladin Ralph]

I googled the subject and there seems to be a lot of problems with Federal and CCI in Dillon. Winchester and Remmington seem to be ok. Does anyone have any experiance with Tulammo?

 

Dose anyone know why primers get crooked? In checking the loads I ran yesterday about 10% had the primers in crooked.

[Grizzly Dave]

So it seems this problem is more common to certain primer brands, how about size?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I googled the subject and there seems to be a lot of problems with Federal and CCI in Dillon. Winchester and Remmington seem to be ok. Does anyone have any experiance with Tulammo?

 

Dose anyone know why primers get crooked? In checking the loads I ran yesterday about 10% had the primers in crooked.

Oh-oh. Primers catch on one edge of the primer pocket and then seat with one edge slightly bent in because of alignment problems, usually.

 

Unless you have a bent primer ram, it sounds like your press needs the shell plate alignment fixed, as the shell plate is not stopping exactly over the primer ram. Call Dillon and see what they recommend - I think they have an alignment tool you can buy.

 

To check alignment, with no cases on the shell plate, shine a flash light down the primer seating opening, and see if the ram is coming up exactly centered in the shell plate.

 

Check your shell plate axle bolt that it is "just right - almost snug" so the shell plate does not wobble with downward pressure on it, but the shell plate still rotates all the way around freely.

 

Several parts all work together to seat a primer in the 650. They all have to be installed and adjusted right. Maybe a call to have Dillon help you with a walkthrough of all the adjustments and checks would be in order.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Litl Red]

I googled the subject and there seems to be a lot of problems with Federal and CCI in Dillon. Winchester and Remmington seem to be ok. Does anyone have any experiance with Tulammo?

 

Dose anyone know why primers get crooked? In checking the loads I ran yesterday about 10% had the primers in crooked.

 

They require "excess" room to get crooked. The machinery is designed to provide no wiggle space. If they can't bounce or wiggle, they can't get crooked.

 

My 550 primer feed system started out with about 10% being fed crooked. The 550 really has no tolerance adjustments, but does require that the primer carrier align beneath the feed tube very accurately. It's something that I needed to make sure of every time the primer feeds were swapped out for Large or Small. Perhaps looking at where in your system the primers move from one stage to the next would show you a problem area. Do they drop from a reservoir into a carrier for example?

 

The primer slide return spring on my 550 was also very strong. It contributed to the problem with the strong snapping it caused. Buffing the slide contact areas (like smoothing a 6shooters action) didn't get rid of the thunking. Weakening that spring in stages got it to work perfectly (so far). It's been good for over 20 years now.

[Paladin Ralph]

GJ, I just checked my primer ram and it is centered. When I change shell plates I tighten it snug with the allan wrench then back it off 1/8 to 1/4 turn so the plate will move. I dont think I can check the plate alignment until my new parts come in because the keeper is bent.

 

I only ordered the parts that I could see were damaged. Could there be any others that should be replaced? Dillon ask me if I needed a new alarm, because they said when this happens it usually distroies that too, but it appears to be ok and still buzzes. I am concerned about the primer tube holder being damaged inside. How can I check that? I nad to drive the primer tube out with a steel rod that I made when the priimers were too big. (they went in ok but froze up in the bottom and I had to carefully drive some of them out.)

 

I guess I eed to call Dillon again and ask them is there anything else I need.

[Dar B Shureshot, SASS #57625]

The previous owner of my 650 had a similiar explosion. Dillion sent him replacement parts for the primer feed mechanism. The machine was somewhat dirty when I bought if from his widow. It was periodically flipping primers on their side. When I inspected the primer seat assembly, I found that it was not completely retracting below flush and was snagging the primer edge as it rotated into position and turning the primer on its side occasionaly. The primer seat assembly cannot be dissasembled and cleaned. Dillion knew of the problem and sent me a new one. I have had no problems or snags since then. I now keep an eye on the primer seat assembly on both of my 650s.

[SHOOTIN FOX]

Had the same problem. Dillon sent a complete priming system and told me to throw away the old set. The outer tube was emgineered to take the blast only. I was using winchester LP and had about forty left in the tube. The follower was stuck in the ceiling.

[Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310]

If you are only going to load150 to 200 per hour you could just get a 550 and never worry about it happening again!.....Doc

[John Boy]

 

I pushed to seat the primer like I have done thousands of times and KABOOM!

Ralph, all primers go KABOOM when the anvil is hit HARD & FAST. Slow down dropping the press arm seating primers

[Paladin Ralph]

So John Boy I should go slower than 150 per hour.

 

FYI my 650 is new, I have had it about 4 mlnths outa the box.

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

I got an old 550 in the room and ifn I work closely at it I can get 300 per hour. Not sure speed per se is the problem. Not sure that sideways primers are the problem as I have mooshed (technical term) more than a few in the last 30 plus years reloading with 26 being on a Dillon. Stuff happens and all the smooshing was done slooowly. This was with Federals, Winchesters, and maybe a few Fiocchis and CCIs pistol primers and small rifle primers (Winchester).

 

I get dents in the primers from errant flakes of powder. That has not been a problem.

 

I have even been known to de-cap live primers (shudder) but I do it Slooooly.

 

Loud noises have not interrupted me (yet) though I change the undergarments regularly just in case.

 

 

I figure I will continue to reload, Sloowly. Cause that may be the only way to avoid that problem.

 

Loading slower allows a peak, aided by a light, into the case to be sure there is the right amount of powder. Not sure you can check that at 600 plus rounds per hour.

 

It could just be a case of stuff happens.

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

I had a primer explosion in my press today. I didnt think that possible, but it did. When I called to order new parts, they knew what I needed they told me how it started in the primer seating area then it was a chain reaction all the way up the primer tube. So that tells me this has happened to others. Lucky I only had about 30 primers left and they ruptured the tube when the blast expanded the tubbe to the ID size of its holder. I had to drive the tube out with a steel rod and hammer. The blast was so hot it melted the end of the follower about 2" up and I had to look all over my shop to find it after the explosion blew it out.

 

Dillon is replacing the parts and shipping them to me no charge.

 

Any one have any ideas how to prevent this?

 

Get rid of the Dillon. I had a 650 that I returned, had MANY problems with the primer feed system.

[Paladin Ralph]

Yep I use a powder checker and a LED light to see whats in my cases as I slooooowly reload.

[John Boy]

 

So John Boy I should go slower than 150 per hour.

Ralph, you don't have to go into slow-mo mode. Just don't slam the arm down seating the primer. Again Hard and Fast on the anvil - all primers will ignite. And you have dents in the seated primer - your primer cup is not adjusted to the proper height. There is a picture in the manul that shows the proper height.

[Roger Rapid]

GJ - lots of good tips...

 

PR - you mentioned "changing shell plates" and "hand feeding cases." I think the more variables you impose, the further you will be from reliability. I know the 650 is designed for ease of changeout for multiple calibers, but I much prefer to set the press for one caliber and powder charge and leave it - and get consistency. (I shoot 45LC in both pistol and rifle - same loads, same bullets. Other calibers I load for side matches, long-range, etc., I do singly in a Rockchucker.)

 

I'm working methodically, but not "fast" and I'm getting about 400+ rounds an hour out of my 650 (I can't imagine working at Dillon's potential "600 per minute) rate - maybe if someone else is loading primer tubes and throwing cases in the hopper...)

 

Lastly, I've never had a tube of primers go off on me, but the thought of it is pretty darn scary!!!

 

...RR

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Not sure that sideways primers are the problem as I have mooshed (technical term) more than a few in the last 30 plus years reloading with 26 being on a Dillon.

The primer flipping (to sideways or even upside down) never seems to directly be a problem. I've smashed a ton in the 550 because I get lazy and don't realign the primer ram every few hundred rounds, it starts drifting to one side or the other under the primer feed tube, and then you start seeing a few sideways.

 

I've had just one explosion in the 650, and it SEEMED to come from a primer somehow getting pinched in the feed wheel. Wasn't dirty, just had noticed a little drag as the handle came forward, then one forward stroke, a primer detonated and took all the others in the wheel and tube with it. It was my wake up call to pay attention to ANY amount of drag as you operate a 650. It will run very smooth when all is adjusted right. When it sticks or drags, something is wrong - so start looking for it.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Conejo Kid #51342]

Gentlemen,

 

I have been reloading for 10 years without incident (knock on wood). As Garrison Joe stated, I have had issues with the primer feed "wheel" getting stuck. I always stop and check. Generally a primer gets in sideways and needs to be cleared. I have often wondered with these "tube explosions" how the detonatons "jump" the 6 or 7 primer pocket holes to the fill tube.

 

Can anyone who has had one of these explosions report if there were any un-detonated primers left in the "feed wheel"???

 

I suspect that the main cause of these incidents is the binding of the primer between the feed wheel and the tube assembly as mentioned by GJ.

 

Thoughts??

 

CK

[Roger Rapid]

It's been my experience that you can distort or crush a primer - if you do it slowly - and not have it detonate (I've crushed several primers in a press without having them go off - fortunately). It needs a concussive force to detonate. I think the key is slow methodical movements as opposed to a jerky movement to drive the primer in. Doing everything possible to keep them right-side-up is important and there's another post entitled "Dillon 650 Rejects" about 5-pages back on suggestions to prevent flipped primers. ...RR

[Paladin Ralph]

GJ - I do appreciate all your great ideas. Any time something feels different I stop and check it out.

 

RR - I shoot 45 LC pistol and rifle, my wife shoots 38 pistol and rifle, I also load 9mm and am going to 40 ACP, 45ACP and I got the Dillon so I can load multiple cals. I use my Rock Chucker for high powered rifle rounds and a Lee Load All for shot gun to reduce the kick. I am gun and reloading poor now and dont have the money for a press for each caliber. If I was going to do that, I would probably use a Hornaday instead because they are a little less money and their quick connect process is really good. I use quick connects with my RCBS press.

 

General: I called Dillon again last night and told them my concern that the explosion may have damaged more then the obvious so they are sending me a whole new feed system.

 

Spacing and alignment have been mentioned. I cycled it over and over and the plunger is dead center every time. I measured the wheel and the ID is .2270 and a Federal Primer OD is ..2095 but I dont think there is enough room for them to flip.

 

I have had the press for 4 month, brand new. I mentioned above why I chose the 650, for safety reasons. All my friends have 550's, no one has a 650. I ask my most trusted 550 friend to help me set up my new press because he has been using Dillon for 30 years and knows Dillons methodoligy. He was concerned that he had no experiance with the 650 but I trust his ability and still do.

 

I have loaded 5-6 thousand roinds different calibers with no problems.

 

A few have suggested I am slamming the primers, but I AM NOT!

 

JB - I think you have helped me find the problem. I did not know I needed to change the primer punch. So I have been loading large primers with the small punch that was in the press when I got it, so it was just a matter of time.

 

It would be nice if Dillon provided a check list of what needs to be changed when doing a caliber change. Something simple, just a list to jog our minds. I looked there is no mention of the primer punch in the caliber change information, nor the primer tube or the primver wheel. Who knows that may save someones eyesite.

 

Thanks to all of you for your comments.

[Doc Flimshaw Sass# 73310]

Here is a link to Brian Enos's dillion website with all the info on caliber conversions and what's needed......Doc

http://www.brianenos.com/pages/dillonfaqs.html#650calconv

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Gentlemen,

I have often wondered with these "tube explosions" how the detonatons "jump" the 6 or 7 primer pocket holes to the fill tube.

 

Can anyone who has had one of these explosions report if there were any un-detonated primers left in the "feed wheel"???

 

If a primer goes off in the feed wheel in a 650, there is enough gap both above and below the wheel to contain and direct the pressure wave around the wheel, and all the primers in the wheel and in the feed tube are likely to go off.

 

When I had a primer detonate, it took all the primers in the wheel and the feed tube with it.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

Garrison,

 

Yer explanation of the propagating explosion makes sense. I have never seen a 650 except to glance at it longingly whilst at Dillon's. I will look at it closely next time I am there.

 

That is one advantage of the 550, any potential primer mashing or loud noises takes 2 inches from the primer tube.

 

knock on wood

 

CP

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

I once used a Pard;s 650 to load some rounds . I was going to buy one and sell my SDB. I have used a 550 also and that 650 just did not feel right. I still have the SDB and love the thing.

 

BTW; do you have any Magtec CBC brass in your Brass batch when you had this explosion of sorts ? CBC brass can be out of spec in many ways. Case rims to thick, primer pockets tight & flash holes not centered, flash holes not the right size,(undersized).

 

I will not let strange brass enter my batch. I only shoot Starline brass. I do not like mixed brass.