Rule clarification

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

We had a situation today that seemed straight forward until the penalties were read to the scorekeeper. Scenario called for 8 rifle rounds. Shooter loaded 10 (serious brain fart - he told the LTO he only loaded 8), and the extra two were discovered at the unloading table. (Yes, I know he could have ejected the two overloads at the end of the course of fire, but he didn't). Rifle was open and safe, but had one live round on the carrier and one in the magazine. Two minor safeties. Then one of the spotters called "and two rifle misses". Huh? He hit all 8 of the rifle targets, just had two extra rounds loaded. It was pointed out to me that if you check the RO1 handbook, page 23, under 5-second penalties, you will find (emphasis mine):

 

5-SECOND PENALTIES

 

• Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A "miss" is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural "trap" by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.

 

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

• Each target hit with "illegally acquired" ammunition.

 

So even if you clean the rifle targets, if you overload 2 rounds, you get the two minor safeties PLUS two misses, even though there was nothing to shoot them at? This doesn't seem right, and I think the book needs clarification here.

 

Additionally, during the ensuing conversation, another spotter said that he ran into the same call at the Southwest Regional last year, except he was told only the first overloaded round was counted as a miss, not any more. All were counted as minor safeties. I cannot even figure out where that interpretation came from.

 

So do we have a double jeopardy situation intentionally written into the rule book, or was this a mistake? Should the shooter have gotten two minor safeties and two misses, or only two minor safeties?

 

Laz

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Only One MS, NO Misses. Only misses for unfied rounds during the engagement of targets for example shooter shoots five targets and jams on sixth shot, the shooter would only get 3 misses for the three rounds not used on the eight targets.

 

KK

 

 

17. Long guns will have their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence and made "safe" and then restaged.

18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification. A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded, constitutes a 10-second Minor Safety violation. Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (handed to the Range Officer or placed on a prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still loaded, everyone knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an appropriate manner.

Minor Safety Penalties

• Not leaving a long gun action open at the end of the shooting string or before the next firearm is fired.

• Leaving empty or live rounds in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded.

• Not returning revolvers to leather unless otherwise specified.

• Open, empty long guns that slip and fall but do not break 170° safety rule or sweep anyone.

• Retrieving a dropped "dead" round, or a dropped loaded cylinder.

• Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45 degrees downrange.

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

+1

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep. KK is right on.

 

1 MSV for one or more live rounds left in the gun. Doesn't matter if you leave ten in the rifle. The gun does not get any more unsafe.

 

No misses for unfired rounds. He fired ALL he was supposed to. Shooting the rest would have been penalized. Wow, some of you guys are REALLY into PILING ON with the supposed penalties. Read the book!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I've said it often - and it is a stated principle of this game - Benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter. Please look for ways to minimize the damage, not to maximize it.

 

CR

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

No need for a rule clarification. Does show a need for some RO training.

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

No need for a rule clarification. Does show a need for some RO training.

+1

[Sassy Teton Lady, SASS #47525]

I had this question for PWB about a year ago. This was his response at the time.

 

if one was in the mag + one on the carrier, I would treat that as TWO separate infractions and assess TWO MSV's;

and let the shooter know that s/he was fortunate in that the "overloading" penalty has been rescinded.

IMO...multiple rounds in the magazine would be counted as a single infraction.

Unless this has been changed - the call - 2 MSV's

 

 

[Charlie T Waite]

Here is the link that Pale Wolf posted to the PDF regarding overloading the rifle http://oowss.com/Overloading%20%20the%20rifle%20--%20PWB.pdf it is very self explainitory.

 

Hope it helps

 

CTW

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

Ok, guys, so far everyone agrees with me. 2 MSV only. But the MSVs are not the issue; it's where the handbook calls for the misses, too. Now I need an answer to my question. Show me where the highlighted area in my first post DOESN'T apply. If you read the RO 1 Handbook as currently written (see my first post) then he gets the misses, too.

 

There is no wiggle room in the rule on page 23; any unfired round left in the rifle is a miss! It doesn't say anything about overloading, or if the shooter already shot all the targets out there clean. I was challenged by the other spotters to show them wrong in the book, and I couldn't .Please copy and post the rule that says them wrong on this!

 

Again, I also spoke with a shooter that was called on this at Comin' at 'Cha. In my opinion, If a bad call happens at a Regional, and it's supported by the rule book, then the book needs to be revised.

 

Laz

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Ok, guys, so far everyone agrees with me. 2 MSV only. But the MSVs are not the issue; it's where the handbook calls for the misses, too. Now I need an answer to my question. Show me where the highlighted area in my first post DOESN'T apply. If you read the RO 1 Handbook as currently written (see my first post) then he gets the misses, too.

 

There is no wiggle room in the rule on page 23; any unfired round left in the rifle is a miss! It doesn't say anything about overloading, or if the shooter already shot all the targets out there clean. I was challenged by the other spotters to show them wrong in the book, and I couldn't .Please copy and post the rule that says them wrong on this!

 

Again, I also spoke with a shooter that was called on this at Comin' at 'Cha. In my opinion, If a bad call happens at a Regional, and it's supported by the rule book, then the book needs to be revised.

 

Laz

Who's agreeing on the 2 MSV's?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

LL,

If a double shooter has 1 target left and he loads 2 rounds and only fires 1 round do you call a miss for the live round in the shotgun?

 

Stan

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

STOP!!!

 

Step back and read the rules again. I can see where this is coming from...yet I don't understand where this is coming from.

 

So...if shooter overloads rifle and hits targets with those overloaded rounds, the shooter gets the illegially acquired ammo penalties. But if the shooter overloads the rifle and does not fire them, he gets the MS penalty(s) PLUS the penalty for unfired rounds? Are you kidding me? Those rounds are NOT even supposed to be in the @*#¥ rifle, let alone be fired.

 

Have we come to this? People looking for double and triple penalties? I fear what we are asking for and we may get it...a rulebook the size of the NYC Yellow Pages. And we deserve it if this is what really happens on a Saturday or Sunday at the range.

 

At some point "common sense" must apply. Unfired rounds means those rounds meant for that shooting string, just as KK stated above.

 

Oy and geeeeeeeese all in one

[Assassin]

One MSV, no misses.

 

 

Assassin

[Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L]

The Miss Flow Chart is pretty clear. All targets hit with legally acquired ammo. No misses.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

We have a winner!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Point 1. The rules only drop into the "unfired round counted as a miss" situation when the shooter has not fired all the rounds that the stage called for. Shooter fired all required rounds. He MAY NOT fire those illegally-acquired rounds that were brought to the line improperly. The rules don't make this clear. You have to use your brain to figure out that the newly added rule about "unfired round will be counted as a miss" to realize that the rule does not apply to illegally overloaded rounds in the gun. It applies to the situation where a shooter just does not fire one or more rounds that he was SUPPOSED to fire.

 

 

Point 2. As for the interpretation that PWB gave some time ago on rounds left in the long gun, read the printed rule very carefully, and you will find that the rule only allows one MSV for the situtation where two or three or ten rounds are in the gun.

 

 

MSV Penalty - Leaving empty or live rounds in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded.

Page 24 of RO I manual, under Ten Second Penalties.

 

Because the rule says "rounds" and declares that a MSV results from rounds left in long gun, this situation with a round on the carrier and one in the mag is a single MSV. To read that any other way is, I truly believe, incorrect. If the rules were written as "Leaving a round in the long gun - each round constitutes a minor safety" I would support that earlier statement from PWB, But, in this case, I believe that statement is either wrong or the wording of the rule must have changed since the "clarification" was issued.

 

In fact, in the PDF file that Charlie Waite refers us to, PWB himself is quoted as saying:

 

 

MSV - for leaving rounds in the rifle at the end of the shooting string (shooter has until FIRING the next gun to clear it)

 

Read that again - an MSV for leaving ROUNDS in the rifle. One MSV.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Tracker Mike SASS #38824]

Point 1. The rules only drop into the "unfired round counted as a miss" situation when the shooter has not fired all the rounds that the stage called for. Shooter fired all required rounds. He MAY NOT fire those illegally-acquired rounds that were brought to the line improperly. The rules don't make this clear. You have to use your brain to figure out that the newly added rule about "unfired round will be counted as a miss" to realize that the rule does not apply to illegally overloaded rounds in the gun. It applies to the situation where a shooter just does not fire one or more rounds that he was SUPPOSED to fire.

 

 

Point 2. As for the interpretation that PWB gave some time ago on rounds left in the long gun, read the printed rule very carefully, and you will find that the rule only allows one MSV for the situtation where two or three or ten rounds are in the gun.

 

 

 

Because the rule says "rounds" and declares that a MSV results from rounds left in long gun, this situation with a round on the carrier and one in the mag is a single MSV. To read that any other way is, I truly believe, incorrect. If the rules were written as "Leaving a round in the long gun - each round constitutes a minor safety" I would support that earlier statement from PWB, But, in this case, I believe that statement is either wrong or the wording of the rule must have changed since the "clarification" was issued.

 

In fact, in the PDF file that Charlie Waite refers us to, PWB himself is quoted as saying:

 

 

 

Read that again - an MSV for leaving ROUNDS in the rifle. One MSV.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

+1 this would be my interpretation as well - 1 MSV next shooter

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

Steeldust Dan: Yes, you see where I'm questioning, but SHOW ME IN THE BOOK!

 

GJ: On your Point 1, The unfired round counted as a miss isn't new. I have RO handbooks back to 2007, and it's in all of them. Nobody's brought it to my attention before. Again, the way it's written, there's no wiggle room: an unfired round is a miss. If that isn't what was meant, it needs to be rewritten. On your point 2, I see where you're coming from, If I remember correctly, when I went through RO1 originally, it was 1 MSV for each round. It has not been brought up in any of my refreshers that it is now only one MSV. Funny thing is, I am retaking both RO courses next week as refreshers, and I plan to bring this up. That clarification from PaleWolf is about three years old (I've got it somewhere). I'm not going through all the older manuals tonight, but something appears to have changed about the way that rule is written, whether it was intentional or not.

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

It is NOT an unfired round! It is illegially acquired ammo, and will be a penalty if fired. No double penalty. You want it in black and white, I'm afraid Hell will freeze over first. The rules allow for the shooter to escape the illegially acquired ammo penalty by ejecting the rounds before moving on to next weapon.

 

Have not seen your answer to the question about a double shotgun shooter loading two but only firing one. Does our club enforce this "unfired round" penalty in this situation? What is the difference?

[Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L]

If you want to take it to the point of absurdity, the rule you quoted doesn't state each unfired round left in a firearm, it simply says "Each unfired round." Start counting every shotgun shell and cartridge left in a loop and assess misses? They're unfired rounds. Show me in the book where it says otherwise. Gee, it doesn't.

 

How about I go to the line with no ammo in the guns? Can I be assessed misses if there are no rounds to fire? Can't miss 'em if I didn't shoot at 'em.

 

Pretty sure the rule as written means misses are assessed for not firing the REQUIRED number of rounds.

 

Do we really need clarification for this?

 

THE 10 COMMANDMENTS

Safety

Keep it fun

USE COMMON SENSE

[charlietwogunz]

Cowboy Rick +1.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Read carefully the PWB link in Post #9 - One MSV is the Call

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

Do we need clarification for this? Yes, apparently we do, since I've since heard from a number of folks via PM and verbally that they've gotten multiple different calls on this, up to and including at a regional shoot.

 

SD: per a previous call by PaleWolf, the shotgun is handled differently. You may fire the extra round or dump it after loading the double shotgun, as the shotgun is not loaded at the loading table. This call was made in May, 2011 by Hipshot and relayed by PaleWolf.

 

SDD and TdD, I'm not trying to be pedantic here. " Pretty sure the rule as written means misses are assessed for not firing the REQUIRED number of rounds." doesn't cut it. That's what I said at the shoot, and got challenged to show it in the book.

 

You guys are basically saying the same thing I did at the shoot. When you have to daisy-chain assumptions on a fairly common situation, then the rule(s) are too vague or are written poorly. Obviously not everyone "uses their brain" in the same way!

 

Thanks for all the comments.

 

Laz

[Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life]

Lazurus, I feel sorry for you. You have some hardasses there. Wow.

[Trueno del Diablo, SASS#22364L]

One last time.

 

You left this out of your original quote for 5 second penalties:

 

5-SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A miss is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural trap by making it difficult to determine the shooters intent when engaging the targets.

Each missed target.

Each unfired round.

Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition.

 

 

To help understand this concept, a MISS FLOW CHART is found in Appendix C. It is also good to understand A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.

 

 

FOLLOW THE FLOW CHART!

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

It says "rounds" in magazine or carrier... One minor safety only! Common sense would indicate " each unfired round" refers to the correct number of rounds having been loaded and then being unfired. Not many would assume that shooters load extra rounds to make another explanation of the rule necessary... That's a stretch

 

Good Luck!

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

WOW....1 MSV...

 

DELETED

[Madd Mike #8595]

No need for a rule clarification. Does show a need for some RO training.

I agree,

perhaps, sometimes folks may over think things a tadd bit

[Griff]

Hmmmm... it wasn't all that long ago that the MSV for "overloading the rifle" was eliminated. Does it strike anyone else that this interpretation of "unfired rounds" being applied to left over rounds, not necessary for the stage, is an attempt to pile on a penalty in place of the one that was eliminated? The logic espoused for the application of the "unfired round = a miss" applied before the elimination of the "overloaded rifle" penalty, yet I've never heard of this before now.

 

Some folks need to review point # 4 on page of the ROI Manual, under the heading Range Officer Attitude.

[Diamond S Doug]

I believe that the call should be 1MSV...however the sarcastic side of me is laughing at the possibility of

 

Clean (no targets missed), 1 MSV (overloaded rifle), and 2 misses (unfired overloaded rounds)

 

so Clean with a MSV and 2 misses it is.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

It is good to try to follow the book, BUT we have a major problem if we say "Show me in the book" for everything.

 

That concept is partly what has led us to this point.

 

If that is what you want, you ARE asking for the IRS code for SASS rules. Beyond a certain point it is asking for the impossible.

 

Life is too complex to expect a humanly created document to cover everything.

 

At a certain point, we must understand what is written and make an interpretation rather than a "citation."

 

Unfortunately, modern society has been lead down a false path left over from the late 1800's (not the cowboys so much) that you could write a "perfect contract" that would cover every possibility in life. It went with the idea of optimism that science would find answers for all human problems. Thus the rise of socialism, communism, facism. . . That belief has been shown to be erroneous, to say the least, but it has permeated nearly all of our society, laws, and beliefs.

 

I struggled with the idea a lot while working in technical fields in government. They wanted me to develop checklists of how I solved computer issues. And communications and radar issues. I explained that you can teach the process, but never reduce it to checklists and formulas. You must develop the skill instead.

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

Marauder, I understand what you are saying, but we've been telling our shooters to check the manuals for questionable calls for years. Now we tell them not to? I don't fault the other shooters at the match Sunday for challenging me on my call, and to show them the answer in the manual. For the unusual and somewhat complex issues we see in some of the "what's the call?" questions we see on the SASS wire I agree with you. However, overloading a rifle is not a complex issue, nor is it that unusual, and should be properly handled by the manuals.

 

I was surprised to hear this had come up on one of the shooters at Comin' at 'Cha last year, and he had been dinged for a miss for an overloaded rifle.

 

As I stated earlier, the five second penalty called for each unfired round in the RO1 manual is pretty cut and dried. It doesn't say "for legally acquired ammo," nor does it give an exemption for "only rounds to be used on targets", etc. It says "for each unfired round." I found no way of convincing the other shooters that this doesn't apply in the manuals. That's why I posted here. I used every one of the arguments posted here by others at the time, and I still got "Yeah, but the manual says......"

 

I think our ultimate goal in any of this is to insure that (ideally) each issue is handled the same way at every shoot. That way we're fair to everyone. Telling folks to "check the manuals," then telling them, "well, except for this point", doesn't support this.

 

Heck, I read the manuals each time a new one comes out, and try to take refresher courses every few years, and I found I've been making a wrong call in this situation (and been supported by the other experienced RO-qualified shooters on the posse). I've been calling an MSV for each overloaded round, and it's been pointed out to me in this thread that, at some point in the past, that's been changed to one MSV for all the overloaded rounds. I've discussed this particular call this week with some of the local shooters and been told flatly that it's still one MSV for each round, and that everyone calling for a single MSV is reading the book wrong.

 

<sigh>

 

I think this horse has been beaten to death. I was hoping that a member of the RO committee would step in on this thread. As it is, I will bring this up in the refresher RO courses I'm attending in a couple of weeks.

 

Thanks again for everyone's input.

 

Laz

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Lazarus,

 

We still need to check the manual, but do you not understand what I was saying?

 

Yes, make changes for clarity, but do you want a manual that must be computerized - and that will have even more contradictions and still require some interpretation?

[Monco]

Thank you Marauder for the KISS method analogy.

 

How do you get a miss when targets were hit with the correct firearm with properly acquired ammo and didn't fire any illegally acquired ammo?

You can't.

 

I'm going with:

1 MSV for live ammo left in firearm and wasn't under the hammer......not 1 MSV for every round left in the firearm.