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Captain Bill Burt

You make the call

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Shooting instructions call for the shooter to engage five targets in a 9 shot Nevada sweep then put the tenth round on a pig target for a 5 second bonus.

 

Midway through his 9 shot string the shooter jacks out a live round, when he gets to the last target of the string he skips it and shoots the pig.

 

What's your call?

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Shooting instructions call for the shooter to engage five targets in a 9 shot Nevada sweep then put the tenth round on a pig target for a 5 second bonus.

 

Midway through his 9 shot string the shooter jacks out a live round, when he gets to the last target of the string he skips it and shoots the pig.

 

What's your call?

 

Miss for the ejected round

"P" for hitting targets "out of order"

Bonus for hitting the pig

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one miss. one P

Oh yea, I forgot the Bonus. He gets that.

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These rulings are taking waaaaaay to long this weekend ;)

 

Wyatt

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These rulings are taking waaaaaay to long this weekend ;)

 

Wyatt

I agree it took PW 13 minutes to respond. Service has definitely gone down hill:)

Ringer

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I agree it took PW 13 minutes to respond. Service has definitely gone down hill:)

Ringer

 

:P

 

;)

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I can see the M and P and agree with the B but if the stage writer added that all 9 targets must be engaged prior to pig being engaged would the call be a M and P and no B?

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Shooting instructions call for the shooter to engage five targets in a 9 shot Nevada sweep then put the tenth round on a pig target for a 5 second bonus.

 

Midway through his 9 shot string the shooter jacks out a live round, when he gets to the last target of the string he skips it and shoots the pig.

 

What's your call?

 

 

I can see the M and P and agree with the B but if the stage writer added that all 9 targets must be engaged prior to pig being engaged would the call be a M and P and no B?

Hi Krazy,

 

The word "then" in the instructions implies do the beginning of the sentence first "then" do the second part of of the sentence after. The word "must" is unnecessary to convey intent, as "then" did it adequately.

 

So, no change to PWB's call.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Miss for the ejected round

"P" for hitting targets "out of order"

Bonus for hitting the pig

Just have a question, if shooter had skipped the target he jacked out the round on and ended the Nevada sweep with the 9th round on the correct target then hit the bonus with the 10th round.

Would it have been 1 miss, 1 bonus, no "P"?

 

Thanks

Randy

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Just have a question, if shooter had skipped the target he jacked out the round on and ended the Nevada sweep with the 9th round on the correct target then hit the bonus with the 10th round.

Would it have been 1 miss, 1 bonus, no "P"?

Thanks

Randy

Not PWB, but;

As I see it; No, He did not ENGAGE the 9 targets before engaging the 10th. Jacking out the round and skipping that target does not constitute engaging/shooting at it. Shoot the 9, in order specified then reload one for the bonus, removes all the penalties.

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JMHO, but, I'd say he should have shot all targets in order and there wouldn't have been a round left for the bonus. Willfully shooting out of order to get the bonus isn't in the spirit of the game. So, I say 1 miss (for the last plate not shot), a P and no bonus.

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Just have a question, if shooter had skipped the target he jacked out the round on and ended the Nevada sweep with the 9th round on the correct target then hit the bonus with the 10th round.

Would it have been 1 miss, 1 bonus, no "P"?

 

Thanks

Randy

Okay Randy, "I'll bite. ;)

 

I would agree with you, one miss, 1 bonus, and no P. If he'd merely missed the target instead of ejecting, he'd continue as with your example. Maybe PWB can explain it better; but, I think I have the right call. :unsure:;)

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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PPS IIUC, jacking out a round = a miss, except that a jacked out round may be replaced to negate the miss. Nothing more or less to it.

 

Come on PWB, before I dig that hole too deep... :lol:

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Hi Krazy,

 

The word "then" in the instructions implies do the beginning of the sentence first "then" do the second part of of the sentence after. The word "must" is unnecessary to convey intent, as "then" did it adequately.

 

So, no change to PWB's call.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

This is where I'm having the problem. The fact that the shooter DID NOT engage; fire at or attempt to fire at, all 9 of the targets before engaging the bonus wouldn't that negate his eligibility to get the bonus. The fact that the shooter did not load one to make up the jacked round indicates, at least to me, that the shooter willfully decided to not engage all of the targets.....for that he gets a P. I'm having trouble awarding the B when the shooter willfully decided to not complete the course of fire as the stage instructions were written. I guess "logically" this make sense but in contrast I guess the argument could be made that if the stage writer did not specifically say that you had to engage all 9 targets to be eligible to collect the bonus you don't REALLY have to engage all 9...just shoot the bonus target at some time in the string of fire and you'll get the bonus.

 

 

 

 

 

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KK, that was my logic for my M, P no bonus. The failure to engage per instructions and failure to attempt to reload one indicate no attempt to follow the specified coure of fire. Then again, I am something of a HA

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This is where I'm having the problem. The fact that the shooter DID NOT engage; fire at or attempt to fire at, all 9 of the targets before engaging the bonus wouldn't that negate his eligibility to get the bonus. The fact that the shooter did not load one to make up the jacked round indicates, at least to me, that the shooter willfully decided to not engage all of the targets.....for that he gets a P. I'm having trouble awarding the B when the shooter willfully decided to not complete the course of fire as the stage instructions were written. I guess "logically" this make sense but in contrast I guess the argument could be made that if the stage writer did not specifically say that you had to engage all 9 targets to be eligible to collect the bonus you don't REALLY have to engage all 9...just shoot the bonus target at some time in the string of fire and you'll get the bonus.

Hi Krazy,

 

Since PWB must be out shooting, I'll play again. :rolleyes:

 

I do not think anyone would willfully eject a live round as there is always a penalty attached; a miss, or the time to reload, or a P and a miss like the original post.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Just have a question, if shooter had skipped the target he jacked out the round on and ended the Nevada sweep with the 9th round on the correct target then hit the bonus with the 10th round.

Would it have been 1 miss, 1 bonus, no "P"?

Thanks

Randy

 

YES.

 

REF: "Shooter's Choice"

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This is where I'm having the problem. The fact that the shooter DID NOT engage; fire at or attempt to fire at, all 9 of the targets before engaging the bonus wouldn't that negate his eligibility to get the bonus. The fact that the shooter did not load one to make up the jacked round indicates, at least to me, that the shooter willfully decided to not engage all of the targets.....for that he gets a P. I'm having trouble awarding the B when the shooter willfully decided to not complete the course of fire as the stage instructions were written. I guess "logically" this make sense but in contrast I guess the argument could be made that if the stage writer did not specifically say that you had to engage all 9 targets to be eligible to collect the bonus you don't REALLY have to engage all 9...just shoot the bonus target at some time in the string of fire and you'll get the bonus.

 

There would be no "competitive advantage" to committing a 10-second procedural error to gain a 5-second bonus.

Shooter would still "net" 5-seconds in penalties for doing so.

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Hi Krazy,

 

Since PWB must be out shooting, I'll play again. :rolleyes:

 

I do not think anyone would willfully eject a live round as there is always a penalty attached; a miss, or the time to reload, or a P and a miss like the original post.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

I agree about the willfully ejecting a round part....it's just that after realizing that the shooter has ejected a live round it's the decision made after that. Knowing that there is a bonus at the end they can make up some of the time by not reloading and collecting the bonus. I'd say if you don't pass GO you don't get to collect the $200. If you don't at least make an attempt to reload and engage the target not engaged prior to shooting the bonus you shouldn't be allowed to collect the bonus. The bonus is...as is said in Kajun country...lagniappe. Granted the 15 seconds added to the score by not reloading (M & P..hey that's a gun :) ) seems to be penalty enough I just don't think there should be a way to help negate a portion of that 15 second penalty by being allowed to knock off the time credited by the bonus.

 

But...if the stage writer did not specifically say that, in order to actually collect the bonus, that you HAD to engage all 9 targets BEFORE engaging the bonus; then the call, as made by PWB and others would stand...a M, P and a B. Technically it is correct but in spirit it seems not right. But, if it is not written explicitly in the stage instructions and not specifically addressed in the SASS rules, range rules or stage conventions it is subject to interpretation.

 

 

There would be no "competitive advantage" to committing a 10-second procedural error to gain a 5-second bonus.

Shooter would still "net" 5-seconds in penalties for doing so.

I agree that there is no competitive advantage to committing a 10 second P to get a 5 second B. What I am having a problem with is allowing the shooter to collect that 5 second bonus for reasons stated above.

 

Kajun

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Not PWB, but;

As I see it; No, He did not ENGAGE the 9 targets before engaging the 10th.

Jacking out the round and skipping that target does not constitute engaging/shooting at it.

 

Yes...it does constitute "engaging".

(same REF as posted in #21)

 

Shoot the 9, in order specified then reload one for the bonus, removes all the penalties.

 

That would have been the BEST course of action.

 

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I can see the M and P and agree with the B but if the stage writer added that all 9 targets must be engaged prior to pig being engaged would the call be a M and P and no B?

That was my original call, I was the TO.

 

There would be no "competitive advantage" to committing a 10-second procedural error to gain a 5-second bonus.

Shooter would still "net" 5-seconds in penalties for doing so.

Based on PWB's post I stand corrected. 1M 1P, 1B.

 

I was overruled and the final call was 1M, 1B no P.

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Miss for the ejected round

"P" for hitting targets "out of order"

Bonus for hitting the pig

TH

 

 

I don't understand giving the shooter the bonus. Since the instructions specify a 9-shot sweep,THEN the 10th round on the pig for a bonus, the shooter cannot qualify for the bonus before completing that sweep.

 

Cassalong Hopidy

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TH

 

 

I don't understand giving the shooter the bonus. Since the instructions specify a 9-shot sweep,THEN the 10th round on the pig for a bonus, the shooter cannot qualify for the bonus before completing that sweep.

 

Cassalong Hopidy

Hi Cassalong,

 

Look at it like this, an ejected round = a miss, if not reloaded. If the shooter had missed one of the nine and hit the pig, would you not give the shooter the bonus?

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who thinks she may be on a roll with this one ;) " Mo

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Hi Cassalong,

 

Look at it like this, an ejected round = a miss, if not reloaded. If the shooter had missed one of the nine and hit the pig, would you not give the shooter the bonus?

Regards,

 

Allie "who thinks she may be on a roll with this one ;) " Mo

I'd agree with that logic if the last target wasn't a bonus target....just 10 regular targets that line of thinking would be fine. It's the bonus part that I am having trouble with...it's that giving back the 5 seconds. Wouldn't it have been something if they would have shot at and missed the bonus target too!!

 

Krazy "who thinks AM is indeed on a roll on this one "technically :)" Kajun

 

 

 

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Consider this:

 

Rifle = 10-shot "shooting string" (forget that the last target is a bonus for a minute).

 

"Technically" the shooter made NINE target "engagements" before engaging/hitting the 10th target with the last round.

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.
RO1 p.29

 

As I understand the OP...the shooter ejected a round mid-string...this is generally considered as "engaging" a target even if the shooter failed to pull the trigger once that round was initially chambered (or weak primer strike/bad primer); then ejected that round.

At that point, the shooter has the OPTION to RE-engage that same target...OR...take the MISS for the ejected round& move on to the next target in the shooting order.

(REF: link posted in #21...one more time)) ;)

 

The OP indicates that the shooter chose to RE-engage that target, leaving the OPTION open to replace the ejected round to negate the MISS.

Shooter chose, instead, to:

1) NOT replace that round = MISS (unfired round)

2) SKIP the ninth target to HIT the tenth = P

&

3) HIT the 10th target with the last fired round = Bonus

 

Granted, this was most likely done to minimize the total number of penalties earned...but "technically" it was within the parameters of the stage instructions...IMO.

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Thanks for clearin' that up, PWB. I was of two minds on my answer.

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..........

Granted, this was most likely done to minimize the total number of penalties earned...but "technically" it was within the parameters of the stage instructions...IMO.

Yep, that's what I said too...."technically" its correct and I agree with the call as rendered...M, P and B. I just have problems with awarding the B given the shooter's actions. I guess if I want to have stages written in a way that I like and still adhere to SASS rules I can get off the Wahr and start writing them huh :)

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Hi Cassalong,

 

Look at it like this, an ejected round = a miss, if not reloaded. If the shooter had missed one of the nine and hit the pig, would you not give the shooter the bonus?

 

Regards,

 

Allie "who thinks she may be on a roll with this one ;) " Mo

 

Hi Allie Mo

 

Yes, but you have made an important change in the facts. In your scenario, the shooter did FIRST shoot the 9-shot sweep (missing a target in the process), THEN hit the bonus target. In short, he complied with the instructions but had a miss. The fact that an ejected round EQUALS a miss does not put the shooter in the OP in compliance with the stage instructions as described by Capt. Bill.

 

CH

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