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Subdeacon Joe

Stupid, Stupid.....

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STUPID!!!!!

 

 

The top commanders of the Marine Corps U.S. forces in Afghanistan are investigating a video that purports to show U.S. Marines urinating on the bodies of dead Taliban after Defense Secretary Leon Panetta ordered a probe into behavior he described is "utterly deplorable."

 

 

What on Gods Green Earth would cause these guys to

 

1) do that in the first place (actually, I can understand the urge, but not actually carrying through on it.

 

2) to video it

 

3) to post the video

 

4) to think that no one would notice if they posted the video.

 

 

Stupid, stupid, STUPID! Shame the UCMJ doesn't have a charge of "Gross stupidity."

 

ADDED:

 

Even if they just staged it as a farce, which, if you look it up on youtube, doesn't seem like they did, it is STILL very, very STUPID!

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I just read about that. Gonna suck to be them. Hamid Karzi (sp), the Afgan Pres. even got in on it and wants justice. Something like this could potentially set back relations by years. (my .02)

Cash

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Immature BS. As a retired professional soldier friend of mine said,

"Will our legacy in Iraq be Abu-Ghraib...and Afghanistan a group of jack@$$e$ facing a camera and urinating on a dead enemy? I certainly hope not."
:angry:

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So what on earth could justice possibly be for urinating on the dead body of a Taliban?

Promotion.

Cash bounty reward.

Oh, one small question; Does Hamid Harzi recognize that the Taliban is the ENEMY?

 

leon panetta needs a new job and brain. Perhaps dog catcher or poop collector.

 

Not very bright of the Marines but they make chaos look good.

 

My 2 cents worth.

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Not very bright

 

That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

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So what on earth could justice possibly be for urinating on the dead body of a Taliban?

Promotion.

Cash bounty reward.

Oh, one small question; Does Hamid Harzi recognize that the Taliban is the ENEMY?

 

leon panetta needs a new job and brain. Perhaps dog catcher or poop collector.

 

Not very bright of the Marines but they make chaos look good.

 

My 2 cents worth.

 

I'm a couple of months from retiring, so I am sitting at home writing this. My unit, however, is in Afghanistan. I have friends that I have known for over a decade in harm's way. That potential for harm just became greater because of some A$$hats thinking that sort of thing is funny. I don't think it is funny and I won't. They deserve to be punished to the limits of our laws because, ultimately, it isn't about our diplomatic relations, it is about the guys on the ground whom they jeopardize.

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At least they didn't get accused of using bacon-tipped bullets and slathering the corpses with lard and pig guts.

 

And before anyone says Pershing did it in the Philippines ... http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.asp

 

Makes for a good story though.

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STUPID!!!!!

 

Snip ~

 

Stupid, stupid, STUPID! Shame the UCMJ doesn't have a charge of "Gross stupidity."

 

Seems to me, they do.

 

Or Did.

 

Article 134, the General Article.

 

Even covered "High Mopery in Low Places" IIRC.

 

Sigh.

 

Naw, they weren't thinking.

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I'm a couple of months from retiring, so I am sitting at home writing this. My unit, however, is in Afghanistan. I have friends that I have known for over a decade in harm's way. That potential for harm just became greater because of some A$$hats thinking that sort of thing is funny. I don't think it is funny and I won't. They deserve to be punished to the limits of our laws because, ultimately, it isn't about our diplomatic relations, it is about the guys on the ground whom they jeopardize.

 

Exactly.

 

Stupid to do it. You don't hand the enemy anything that can be used against you in any way.

 

Stupider to film it.

 

Even more stupider to post it anywhere.

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If you are a young combat troop today, the Internet may be your companion....but is it not your friend.

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I'm a couple of months from retiring, so I am sitting at home writing this. My unit, however, is in Afghanistan. I have friends that I have known for over a decade in harm's way. That potential for harm just became greater because of some A$$hats thinking that sort of thing is funny. I don't think it is funny and I won't. They deserve to be punished to the limits of our laws because, ultimately, it isn't about our diplomatic relations, it is about the guys on the ground whom they jeopardize.

 

I don't think it is funny either.

But what I think is more tragic is that some in uniform or in government actually believe that the taliban and al queda do things for logical reasons.

And that they respect life the way we would like to have life respected.

 

Before you make this out to be evil perhaps one should ask when al queda or the taliban did anything that could be considered just and right.

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Hamid Karzi (sp), the Afgan Pres. even got in on it and wants justice.

Okay. Isn't their brand of justice usually cutting something off, i.e. beheading, etc.? So...uh...what do you cut off in this case? :blink:

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And a Marine spokesman said "The actions pictured are not consistent with Marine values." Really ? One of the first things I learned early in my career was if you're going to do omething stupid and/or illegal, DON'T document it. Maybe this was just an overreaction to a recent Marine directive in Afghanistan not to urinate in the direction of Mecca. That, IMHO, is carrying PC just a little too far.

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And a Marine spokesman said "The actions pictured are not consistent with Marine values." Really ? One of the first things I learned early in my career was if you're going to do omething stupid and/or illegal, DON'T document it. Maybe this was just an overreaction to a recent Marine directive in Afghanistan not to urinate in the direction of Mecca. That, IMHO, is carrying PC just a little too far.

 

As I said in the starter post, I can understand the urge to do it. Heck, I can even understand doing it, even though I think it is unprofessional.

 

The REALLY stupid parts were filming it and then broadcasting it. Or sending it to to someone who is likely to broadcast it. They gave the Taliban a huge morale boost and recruiting tool, "See what the Americans think of the people of Afghanistan?"

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I don't think it is funny either.

But what I think is more tragic is that some in uniform or in government actually believe that the taliban and al queda do things for logical reasons.

And that they respect life the way we would like to have life respected.

 

Before you make this out to be evil perhaps one should ask when al queda or the taliban did anything that could considered just and right.

 

Justifying actions based on the Taliban's behavior makes no sense politically or morally.

 

But in their minds they do things for logical reasons. Not just and right certainly, but in their minds, logical. To dominate and terrorize a society and gain total power. It's their methods that are not logical.

If we adopt their methods, where do we draw the line? What we do must be logical, as well as right and just or our whole system of beliefs is in peril.

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

I have some folks nearby... sayin' this was intentionally and falsely misleadin'...

 

An Image... created by the Administration...

 

Helps certain causes.... don't know why or how... how's that work?

 

ts

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I have some folks nearby... sayin' this was intentionally and falsely misleadin'...

 

An Image... created by the Administration...

 

Helps certain causes.... don't know why or how... how's that work?

 

ts

 

 

I doubt that. I have no doubt it's genuine. Unfortunately, it's nothing new for any war really. Combat, by it's very nature, is a dehumanizing experience.

Young troops can be pretty unthinking. Couple that with the internet and their can be hell to pay. I'm wondering what the hell their NCOs were doing.

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Senior NCO's can help you when you make a mistake but even they can't fix STUPID!!!!

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I don't think you can fight a politically correct war and win. And we won't win this one because our politically correct society won't stand for what what would be necessary to win. We already tried that hearts and minds thing in Vietnam. It didn't work there either.

 

And just for the record, I don't care what they do to dead taliban. As far as I'm concerned, pass the word that if you fight with the USMC, they will piss on your corpse and bury you with a dead pig.

 

Ok, Flame away.

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I doubt that. I have no doubt it's genuine. Unfortunately, it's nothing new for any war really. Combat, by it's very nature, is a dehumanizing experience.

Young troops can be pretty unthinking. Couple that with the internet and their can be hell to pay. I'm wondering what the hell their NCOs were doing.

 

Checking other things, they can't be everywhere all the time. All the idjits needed was about two minutes.

 

 

Senior NCO's can help you when you make a mistake but even they can't fix STUPID!!!!

 

Not when you have that much stupid, anyway. A little stupid they can likely fix.

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I don't think it is funny either.

But what I think is more tragic is that some in uniform or in government actually believe that the taliban and al queda do things for logical reasons.

And that they respect life the way we would like to have life respected.

 

Before you make this out to be evil perhaps one should ask when al queda or the taliban did anything that could be considered just and right.

 

It isn't al Qaeda or the Taliban that I am thinking of, which is why I didn't mention them in my post. They, the Taliban in particular, will take whatever actions they deem expedient for their long term survival, and will do all they can to maintain as much power as possible. Their extremist religious beliefs and actions follow accordingly. "Just" and "right" only play into their equation to that extent.

 

Ultimately, it is the hearts and minds of the vast majority that we want to gain and maintain. To take actions which serve to drive a wedge between us and that majority, or causes portions of that majority to begin leaning toward the bad guys is dangerous to us. The Marines in question took actions which served to do so, and were further forbidden by the many rules which they have sworn to serve under. I didn't say it was "evil," and I am not sure how that was read into my previous statement. I do, however, stand by my earlier statement. The a$$hattery demonstrated by those Marines in not only performing the act, but videotaping it and posting it leave me both appalled and angry.

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I don't think you can fight a politically correct war and win. And we won't win this one because our politically correct society won't stand for what what would be necessary to win. We already tried that hearts and minds thing in Vietnam. It didn't work there either.

 

And just for the record, I don't care what they do to dead taliban. As far as I'm concerned, pass the word that if you fight with the USMC, they will piss on your corpse and bury you with a dead pig.

 

Ok, Flame away.

AMEN. So what they pissed on their dead carcass. They did not feel a thing. They are dead. It was dumb and really dumb to document it but it does not warrant any punishment since no one was harmed. Maybe if more of them realized we don't care how they are treated once they are dead, we might be better off. I certainly prefer what they did to the formal funeral bin laden got.

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I agree, It is not possible to fight a politically correct war and win.

There is a time when the rules used in fighting an opponent that does not share our values must be handled differently.

Are we ever going to win this war against terrorism. First (in my memory) it was the PLO, IRA, Hamas, Al Queda, Taliban.

(I may have missed a few.)

 

 

I just returned from a chapter meeting of my gun club.

Many members are "former" Marines.

One of them told a tale about how Black Jack (Pershing) (I Presumed) had 50 muslim prisoners. Killed 49 and buried them with pig entrails.

Let the 50th go.

Follow on comment was that there was no further problems with the muslims in that area.

 

No idea how true that story is but it works for me.

After looking on line I found that Urban Legend say false and Snopes has it marked indetermined.

 

 

As a final twist of irony for this case, I wonder who will get the most serious sentence, those that photographed nude prisoners or those that pissed on the body of dead taliban. I wonder what would have happened if someone pissed on a living taliban. What that sentence would be.

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AMEN. So what they pissed on their dead carcass. They did not feel a thing. They are dead. It was dumb and really dumb to document it but it does not warrant any punishment since no one was harmed. Maybe if more of them realized we don't care how they are treated once they are dead, we might be better off. I certainly prefer what they did to the formal funeral bin laden got.

 

Unless it brings them a bunch of new recruits. Or gains them more support from the local population.

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Unless it brings them a bunch of new recruits. Or gains them more support from the local population.

They may not be so quick to volunteer if they are going to meet allah smelling like Marine urine.

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Guest Chief

Badlands Bob has the real grasp on things,I really wonder how many that replied to his post have ever been in a real bad situation such as our troops are, Check the UCMJ, doubt you will find a article prohibiting pissing. Chief

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When will we ever learn? Eons ago we were engaged in a counter insurgency operation. It is all about winning popular support so that the bad guys do not get hid, fed, watered and supplied by the local populace. Way back when it was all about winning the hearts and minds of the people. We had to be the good guys, provide medical care, treat locals with respect etc. Learned that on the ground in the republic of vietnam. Fast forward 4 to 7 years was taught that in ROTC, Infantry officers basic and advanced courses at Benning.

 

Some where along the line we focused on Ivan the terrible and the great tank battle in Europe against the ruskies. Fortunately that never happened. How to fight an insurgency was forgotten. Even while some of the folks who learned how to do it were still young enough to be on active duty and were in high positions. We did the whole Desert Storm and Iraqi freedom thing and it became apparent the army trained to fight Ivan the terrible on the plains of Europe and to run rough shod over the best the Iraqis had to offer was not ready to fight an unconventional war. In the strictest sense the bad guys in Iraq who came to fight from other lands were not truely insurgents as they did not rise up from with in, but operated in the same way and could only exist if supported by the local populace At some time in the last 3 -5 years a great prophet arose and discovered COIN Counter Insurgency Operations and wrote a manual. Nothing new under the sun, Brits figured it out in Malaysia, we got good at it in Vietnam to the point the Viet Cong was toast and the North Vietnamese army had to take over the fight. Call it the taliban, viet Cong or Sendero Luminoso the bad guys sorta use the same play book. The only way to defeat an insurgency is by getting popular support. There are tactical things like ambushes that can be used to deny the bad guys the ability to move around and do mischief. We certainly do not help ourselves when we go out of our way to inflame.

 

There is another solution, but we are the US Army and not the Waffen SS so our only real choice is: get the people on our side or loose.

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AMEN. So what they pissed on their dead carcass. They did not feel a thing. They are dead. It was dumb and really dumb to document it but it does not warrant any punishment since no one was harmed. Maybe if more of them realized we don't care how they are treated once they are dead, we might be better off. I certainly prefer what they did to the formal funeral bin laden got.

 

 

Well, reverse the players. Video of Taliban fighters, urinating on the bodies of dead Marines. What's YOUR reaction? What's the reaction of other Marines? What's the political response at home? Think that might harden the resolve of the fighters and the people to fight on? To punish the opponent?

 

Even if you put ordinary respect and "political correctness" aside, these stupid kids need to be disciplined for failing to appreciate the strategic implications of what they did. The issue is not whether they caused harm to the bodies; it is the huge propaganda value of such inflammatory behavior. They created a Taliban recruiting poster far more powerful than anything the Taliban could vreate themselves.

 

LL

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Badlands Bob has the real grasp on things,I really wonder how many that replied to his post have ever been in a real bad situation such as our troops are, Check the UCMJ, doubt you will find a article prohibiting pissing. Chief

 

It's called "desecration of a corpse," and it is strictly forbidden.

 

http://www.vetvoice.com/diary/4902/marines-investigating-corpse-desecration

 

First, these actions violate the General Order 1 ban on corpse desecration. So these Marines are looking at the possibility of a dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years under Article 92, UCMJ. Secondly, that provision of General Order 1 exists for a reason. Aside from basic human decency, corpse desecration harms our mission by disrespecting the culture of Afghanistan and the families of the dead. Think this video isn't circulating in Afghanistan already? You think some young Afghan male who was on the fence about the insurgency won't be knocked off it?

 

Additionally, these Marines have dishonored the image of the American Service Member stateside. The media already portrays us as a monolithic group of living time bombs, rocking ourselves in a corner or beating our families. Reports like this, as well as stories like the Army death squad from last year, will only reinforce that image and give unknowing civilians an image of uniformed Americans wondering the desert and mountains of Afghanistan looking for atrocities to commit. I, for one, don't want to have to ever tell people "yeah, I served. But I didn't piss on corpses."

 

Lastly, this goes back to a theme I've been discussing here for several months: the effects of a decade of incessant war on a military. This is clearly a leadership failure. I don't mean to argue a conspiracy where these Marines were instructed to urinate on dead insurgents by higher headquarters. But what is clear is that these Marines' leaders did not instill in them the regulations they were to follow, the importance of those regulations to the mission and how doing something like this can adversely affect the mission and fuel the insurgency. Endless war causes a degradation of leadership. It becomes more clear with each new scandal that this is undoubtedly happening to our military.

 

The argument of troops being in a real bad situation is a non-starter. We have had troops in bad situations many times without having them do such things. Giving them a pass now both negates the humanity of our forces as a whole and increases the likelihood of harm coming to our forces.

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When will we ever learn? Eons ago we were engaged in a counter insurgency operation. It is all about winning popular support so that the bad guys do not get hid, fed, watered and supplied by the local populace. Way back when it was all about winning the hearts and minds of the people. We had to be the good guys, provide medical care, treat locals with respect etc. Learned that on the ground in the republic of vietnam. Fast forward 4 to 7 years was taught that in ROTC, Infantry officers basic and advanced courses at Benning.

 

Some where along the line we focused on Ivan the terrible and the great tank battle in Europe against the ruskies. Fortunately that never happened. How to fight an insurgency was forgotten. Even while some of the folks who learned how to do it were still young enough to be on active duty and were in high positions. We did the whole Desert Storm and Iraqi freedom thing and it became apparent the army trained to fight Ivan the terrible on the plains of Europe and to run rough shod over the best the Iraqis had to offer was not ready to fight an unconventional war. In the strictest sense the bad guys in Iraq who came to fight from other lands were not truely insurgents as they did not rise up from with in, but operated in the same way and could only exist if supported by the local populace At some time in the last 3 -5 years a great prophet arose and discovered COIN Counter Insurgency Operations and wrote a manual. Nothing new under the sun, Brits figured it out in Malaysia, we got good at it in Vietnam to the point the Viet Cong was toast and the North Vietnamese army had to take over the fight. Call it the taliban, viet Cong or Sendero Luminoso the bad guys sorta use the same play book. The only way to defeat an insurgency is by getting popular support. There are tactical things like ambushes that can be used to deny the bad guys the ability to move around and do mischief. We certainly do not help ourselves when we go out of our way to inflame.

 

There is another solution, but we are the US Army and not the Waffen SS so our only real choice is: get the people on our side or loose.

 

 

Exactly. We're supposed to be the good guys.

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First off, if you are going to do something that can get yout ass in a sling, never ever in a million years videotape it.

 

The guy filming it needs an ass whoopin' too..... Apparently, this candidate for General Officer just had to show it off too....

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To anyone who thinks it's not that bad, what would you do to your kids if you caught them pissing on a dead body? What would you do if it was your dead kid being pissed on? I think it's wrong, and I bet people who had nothing to do with it will be retalliated against.

Cash

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Well, reverse the players. Video of Taliban fighters, urinating on the bodies of dead Marines. What's YOUR reaction? What's the reaction of other Marines? What's the political response at home? Think that might harden the resolve of the fighters and the people to fight on? To punish the opponent?

 

Even if you put ordinary respect and "political correctness" aside, these stupid kids need to be disciplined for failing to appreciate the strategic implications of what they did. The issue is not whether they caused harm to the bodies; it is the huge propaganda value of such inflammatory behavior. They created a Taliban recruiting poster far more powerful than anything the Taliban could vreate themselves.

 

LL

last time islamist rammed rifles up the back side of our troops and dragged their bodies down the street, no one got upset, no one did anything, other than to pull our troops out of samalia. It did not strengthen our resolve to fight on. We ran.

 

Think back to the Searchers, the Duke put 2 holes in the eyes of a dead Indian, meant nothing other than in the Indians mind he could not see in heaven. How many virgins want to do something with a man who smells like urine? I bet not 72. Our leaders should stop talking about it and move on.

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