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Subdeacon Joe

Stupid, Stupid.....

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I don't think you can fight a politically correct war and win. And we won't win this one because our politically correct society won't stand for what what would be necessary to win. We already tried that hearts and minds thing in Vietnam. It didn't work there either.

 

And just for the record, I don't care what they do to dead taliban. As far as I'm concerned, pass the word that if you fight with the USMC, they will piss on your corpse and bury you with a dead pig.

 

Ok, Flame away.

I've read all the arguments on this thread stating why this was a stupid thing to do. As the Doc pointed out the actions of these soldiers violated the UCMJ and these guys will probably pay dearly for their actions.

 

Having said all that, I still agree with Bob. These people stab to death artists because of cartoons they have drawn, they cut innocent people's heads off, on camera, because of their religion and proudly publish the videos as recruiting tools, they believe it is their duty to kill anyone whose religious beliefs differ from theirs and that their deity will reward them for their actions. If there are Muslims out there who haven't decided whether they want to support us rather than these scum who as a result of urinating on corpses will subsequently side with the Taliban I say let them, who needs 'friends' like that?

 

They were dead, what more significant injury could be visited upon them? If they deserved death, which they certainly did, then I don't care what was done to their dead carcasses. I think it would be more helpful to let potential Taliban know that after we kill them we'll rub them down with pork fat, stuff a sausage in their mouths and burn them over a bacon grease fire than to pass asinine rules about which direction our soldiers have to face when they take a leak.

 

Does anyone seriously believe that garbage like that perceive our PC rules as anything other than weakness? War is hell, they want war, let's send them straight to hell.

 

Rant Off/

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I've read all the arguments on this thread stating why this was a stupid thing to do. As the Doc pointed out the actions of these soldiers violated the UCMJ and these guys will probably pay dearly for their actions.

 

Having said all that, I still agree with Bob. These people stab to death artists because of cartoons they have drawn, they cut innocent people's heads off, on camera, because of their religion and proudly publish the videos as recruiting tools, they believe it is their duty to kill anyone whose religious beliefs differ from theirs and that their deity will reward them for their actions. If there are Muslims out there who haven't decided whether they want to support us rather than these scum who as a result of urinating on corpses will subsequently side with the Taliban I say let them, who needs 'friends' like that?

 

They were dead, what more significant injury could be visited upon them? If they deserved death, which they certainly did, then I don't care what was done to their dead carcasses. I think it would be more helpful to let potential Taliban know that after we kill them we'll rub them down with pork fat, stuff a sausage in their mouths and burn them over a bacon grease fire than to pass asinine rules about which direction our soldiers have to face when they take a leak.

 

Does anyone seriously believe that garbage like that perceive our PC rules as anything other than weakness? War is hell, they want war, let's send them straight to hell.

 

Rant Off/

 

My issue isn't so much that they did it, but that they let themselves be filmed doing it, and the video was posted for all to see. And that video gives the Taliban a huge propaganda tool.

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My issue isn't so much that they did it, but that they let themselves be filmed doing it, and the video was posted for all to see. And that video gives the Taliban a huge propaganda tool.

Who cares? Any person with half a brain and any sense of morality wouldn't be on the fence in the first place, and this group recruits killers based on DRAWINGS they consider offensive! Should we be restricting our doodlings too? Must we be sure not to ever touch a Koran? Christians in Muslim countries are forbidden to do repair work on their churches, on pain of death, must we tip toe around that too? Look what happened to Coptics in Egypt who did exactly that.

 

These guys are probably barely out of their teens, they probably volunteered with no real idea of what they were getting into, got shipped off to hell on earth where sudden death or permanent dismemberment lurks around every corner, at any time, and now their future is gone because under the stress they made a bad decision that will follow them for the rest of their lives. And we're going to sit in judgment, be worried about whether some misguided fanatic decides their actions justify killing some innocent woman or child? PC jerks like Leon Pannetta or our POTUS are going to crucify them to appease our enemies, who won't be appeased. Geneva runs both ways.

 

I would prefer that a fence sitter choose based on fear of what we'll do to him if he chooses poorly. I couldn't care less whether they respect our decency.

 

Don't get me wrong, what they did was a mistake. It was a mistake because the system will make them pay for it and they should have known that. But at a very basic level, it's the system that is broken, not these soldiers.

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We can only hope that the outcome of this is a reprimand. No reduction in rank, no time in the brig.

Just a bunch of guys happy to be alive after a firefight blowing off some steam.

 

If the government goes all PC on this, then the Taliban win.

 

Washington's words come to mind: "The zeal with which you will get men to volunteer to fight in the next war depends entirely on how well you treated the veterans of the last war".

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Captain, I agree whole heartedly.

If they get any more than a reprimand, taliban has won.

The military might have difficulty recruiting based upon how they treated the warriors of this war.

 

Time for a national change of direction on this type of issue. heh?

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This has nothing to do with how a nation treats its veterans.

Its about screwing up on duty and being held accountable.

 

Do we not expect other members of the government to be held accountable for their actions?

How about cops?

Do you get a free pass because you're in the military. I don't think so.

 

This is not the worst thing anyone has done, but it is wrong and needs to be addressed quickly, efficiently, and with the proper amount of corrective action. I hope the military does not under or over react.

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This has nothing to do with how a nation treats its veterans.

Its about screwing up on duty and being held accountable.

 

Do we not expect other members of the government to be held accountable for their actions?

How about cops?

Do you get a free pass because you're in the military. I don't think so.

 

This is not the worst thing anyone has done, but it is wrong and needs to be addressed quickly, efficiently, and with the proper amount of corrective action. I hope the military does not under or over react.

 

I accept that too....as a civilian who has never served this is a hard post to comment on.

 

Our military is a represenative in who we are....it's too bad that someone posted this on the internet as it is not example of what we want to represent.

 

What happens in battle, I have no right to comment on.

 

Therefore I will trust what veterans here and elsewhere have to say about it...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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This has nothing to do with how a nation treats its veterans.

Its about screwing up on duty and being held accountable.

 

Do we not expect other members of the government to be held accountable for their actions?

How about cops?

Do you get a free pass because you're in the military. I don't think so.

 

This is not the worst thing anyone has done, but it is wrong and needs to be addressed quickly, efficiently, and with the proper amount of corrective action. I hope the military does not under or over react.

 

+1

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We can only hope that the outcome of this is a reprimand. No reduction in rank, no time in the brig.

Just a bunch of guys happy to be alive after a firefight blowing off some steam.

 

If the government goes all PC on this, then the Taliban win.

 

Washington's words come to mind: "The zeal with which you will get men to volunteer to fight in the next war depends entirely on how well you treated the veterans of the last war".

 

 

Sadly, they will get hammered. They will suffer loss of rank and pay, confinement and Dishonorable Discharges...

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Interesting conversation.

 

I've thought about this topic for a bit and my conclusion is this:

 

War is an inhumane act but if we are to engage in war then we need to be as inhumane to our enemy as they are to us if not more so. I don't believe, or put faith, in diplomacy. I favor going through life in a more animalistic way, or rules of the jungle, if you will. The time for diplomacy is when your enemy is stronger than you are. When you are the stronger of the two, smash your enemy harder than he thinks possible.

 

You cannot tether and restrain an inhumane thing in my opinion, nor should you. Therefore do not ask our young to commit inhumane acts and then punish them when they do.

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Interesting conversation.

 

I've thought about this topic for a bit and my conclusion is this:

 

War is an inhumane act but if we are to engage in war then we need to be as inhumane to our enemy as they are to us if not more so. I don't believe, or put faith, in diplomacy. I favor going through life in a more animalistic way, or rules of the jungle, if you will. The time for diplomacy is when your enemy is stronger than you are. When you are the stronger of the two, smash your enemy harder than he thinks possible.

 

You cannot tether and restrain an inhumane thing in my opinion, nor should you. Therefore do not ask our young to commit inhumane acts and then punish them when they do.

 

By this theory, we ought to take the Iraqis we capture and behead them on Armed Forces Television.

 

Sorry, we have to do our best to represent the way of life we hold out to the world as an ideal for all to emulate. If we don't do this, all is lost.

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Interesting conversation.

 

I've thought about this topic for a bit and my conclusion is this:

 

War is an inhumane act but if we are to engage in war then we need to be as inhumane to our enemy as they are to us if not more so. I don't believe, or put faith, in diplomacy. I favor going through life in a more animalistic way, or rules of the jungle, if you will. The time for diplomacy is when your enemy is stronger than you are. When you are the stronger of the two, smash your enemy harder than he thinks possible.

 

You cannot tether and restrain an inhumane thing in my opinion, nor should you. Therefore do not ask our young to commit inhumane acts and then punish them when they do.

 

There are international rules of warfare that the United States agrees to and abides by. Violations can result in war crimes charges.

Training in the military outlines the conduct that is required of combat troops.

The "Kill em all, let God sport em out" mentality is fine for Rambo movies but the reality is a little more complicated. You cannot simply unleash the dogs of war without some standards and control without consequences to the entire society.

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Bama Red, What do you think the Taliban would do if we beheaded captured taliban?

 

Utah Bob, While I understand the much referred to Geneva Convention, it was assumed that all countries would sign it.

In Afghanistan the taliban hasn't signed it have they. They also are NOT a formal country nor army.

So do they get the same protections, I am not sure they should.

 

When was the last time you heard of any notion that the taliban have signed any of these conventions nor that they care about them nor the rights of their opponents nor the civilians they terrorize.

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There are international rules of warfare that the United States agrees to and abides by. Violations can result in war crimes charges.

Training in the military outlines the conduct that is required of combat troops.

The "Kill em all, let God sport em out" mentality is fine for Rambo movies but the reality is a little more complicated. You cannot simply unleash the dogs of war without some standards and control without consequences to the entire society.

If you are referring to Geneva, it is only applicable when both parties are signatories, neither the Taliban nor AQ are countries. Neither of them have made any attempt to abide by established international rules of war, if they had 9/11 would never have occurred. When one party declares no holds barred war on another, fighting by the Marquis of Queensbury rules makes no sense. My position is very simple if someone forces me into a fight for my life, and brings a knife, I want a gun, and I don't particularly care if the aggressor's family and friends like it.

 

What these guys did is only stupid in the sense that our stupid rules will cause them to be punished for it and they should have known that.

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Guest Chief

I have been reading this post from the first and have only made one post my self, I again ask how many pepole responding to this have been in the situation that our troops are now in, I mean actual combat with the other guy trying his best to kill you, how many of you have seen a buddy down and bleeding and you can't help him because to try and help would take another weopen out of the fight,I have been there,if you have not walked in our troops shoes don't try to tell him how to lace his boots. If you have not been there you don't really know how you will react. Cut the troops some slack. Chief

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I have been reading this post from the first and have only made one post my self, I again ask how many pepole responding to this have been in the situation that our troops are now in, I mean actual combat with the other guy trying his best to kill you, how many of you have seen a buddy down and bleeding and you can't help him because to try and help would take another weopen out of the fight,I have been there,if you have not walked in our troops shoes don't try to tell him how to lace his boots. If you have not been there you don't really know how you will react. Cut the troops some slack. Chief

 

I've been in combat.

I still think they were wrong.

I guess there's no point in any further discussion. We just have different views.

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I've been in combat.

I still think they were wrong.

I guess there's no point in any further discussion. We just have different views.

 

 

+1 I've read all the posts up to here and consider UB captured my thoughts. Pretty surprised what I'm reading from some - and it doesn't fit with anyone I personally served with under fire.

 

I abhor PC, and this isn't really a PC issue. Discipline, brains (any????), and values. More will be at risk, and more will die from this, period.

 

I guess we can agree to disagree. I'll move on.

 

Harvey

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I just want to say to those who disagree with my position on this, especially the combat vets, I respect your opinion. I'm definitely not trying to insult you or anything even close, I just respectfully disagree. I'm a vet, but not a combat vet, so what little experience I have with life and death struggles, very little thankfully, is limited to civilian stuff. My last thought before signing off on this subject is that I hope these guys are punished in a way similar to what Colonel West recommended and not dishonorably discharged.

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I've been in combat.

I still think they were wrong.

I guess there's no point in any further discussion. We just have different views.

 

+1

 

We have laws by which our troops have sworn to abide. Our oath is more than just to protect and defend the Constitution. The UCMJ and our laws of warfare exist for a reason, and do not do so in a vacuum. As I have said, I am not so worried about the diplomatic issues, although they are a consideration. Above and beyond the hearts and minds we attempt to retain even, we have the concept of discipline that is vital to our forces and their place as representatives of our society. In this case, discipline broke down in a very real and important fashion. These men were operating under very specific rules from their superiors. At some point, they determined it was OK to not take those rules seriously, to break them in a flagrant fashion. This wasn't lashing out at an enemy, even an unarmed enemy, in unthinking anger. This activity was the result of one person suggesting it, and a number of others agreeing to do it, with the ability to contemplate it, to weigh the consequences, before agreeing to do so. It was, at its essence, a number of Marines, not just thumbing their noses at the Taliban, but actively disobeying their chain of command. If we accept this concept as being one we will tolerate in certain circumstances, where do we draw the line? At what level of the chain of command?

 

I am sure I won't convince many, and that is fine. I do want to make clear my opinion on the matter. If the result is to cause someone to gain additional insight and information in forming their opinion, then that is fine as well.

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Badlands Bob has the real grasp on things,I really wonder how many that replied to his post have ever been in a real bad situation such as our troops are, Check the UCMJ, doubt you will find a article prohibiting pissing. Chief

Perhaps you should go back and review the names of those who have posted; in the short time I have

been here, I have become aware that some of them have indeed been in "real bad situations".

 

I suppose it would be considered bad form to ask the same question of you.

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Guest Chief

Perhaps you should go back and review the names of those who have posted; in the short time I have

been here, I have become aware that some of them have indeed been in "real bad situations".

 

I suppose it would be considered bad form to ask the same question of you.

No its not bad form to ask anybody for verifaction, 1967-1968 River & Coastal Patrol Meckong Delta. S. VietNam,so now you know. Chief

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I may not agree that what they did was wrong in the "Send them to prison" level, but the UCMJ is clear about this and that is where I must stand.

 

I would not want to sit on that Court...

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The below from Col Alan West, just an FYI,

 

While I do not think the urinating was right or honorable, I have not walked in their shoes, and I find much to agree with in this letter

 

 

 

 

 

Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.), a former Army lieutenant colonel, sends THE WEEKLY STANDARD an email commenting on the Marines' video, and has given us permission to publish it.

 

allenwest

 

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

 

 

 

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

 

 

 

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

 

 

 

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

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The below from Col Alan West, just an FYI,

 

While I do not think the urinating was right or honorable, I have not walked in their shoes, and I find much to agree with in this letter

 

 

 

 

 

Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.), a former Army lieutenant colonel, sends THE WEEKLY STANDARD an email commenting on the Marines' video, and has given us permission to publish it.

 

allenwest

 

“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.

 

 

 

“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?

 

 

 

“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.

 

 

 

“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

 

 

I really like this guy...

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Me too, wish he was in the Oval Office :FlagAm:

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I really like this guy...

 

I'm right there with you.

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Me too, wish he was in the Oval Office :FlagAm:

 

Aye that!

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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