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Major Pain

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Are these "re-loads"?

BAD idea for a SD gun. When you get to court AFTER the shooting, you will be 'eat'n alive" for for using reloads.

Respectfully,

LG

 

 

I would like to see some evidence regarding this from the courts. Just a wives tale and lots of "hearsay", but no facts to back it up. How many times has this been brought up in court and had a negative bearing on the case? FACTS now just the facts.

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Ya got that right! :angry:

Well, it get's perpetuated in every gun rag out there, and also by a lot of gun instructors.

 

Like many urban legends - it takes on a truth of it's own in the re-telling.

 

In fact, while it is a potential liability in a questionable case, it is also easily defeated in the same way.

Just make sure your attorney understands that you use reloaded ammunition because it enables you to practice more,

which you do out of due consideration for your social responsibilities to be a careful and practiced shooter,

and because it is a demonstrated more accurate load for you in this gun, also part of your due diligence in gun use.

 

Now - the other old-wives tale is to say nothing - because the cops are out to find a case against you.

That is clearly garbage. You need to immediately establish for the record that that so-and-so attacked you, you

acted in self defense, and you called for their help. After that you might chose to request a lawyer, but first - establish

for the record who is the attacker and who is defending.

 

LEO's - please chime in - what do you need to see and hear at the scene in establishing the protocol you're going to follow??

 

SC

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Nothing wrong with a .380, however that being said, I carry .380 in the summer when folks wear less bulking clothes, Load it with Hornady polmer tip hollowpoints. Winter I carry a 1911 officers size with 185 grn Hornady polmer tip or 165 grn Federal Hydro shocks. Occacially carry a 1873 4 1/2 with winchester silvertips 200 grn. Also like any cowboy carry more than one gun is a good idea for the following reasons, another gun is quicker than a reload, if the current gun malfuctions go to the second, clear first later. My 2 cents.

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http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php?topic=1883.0;wap2

 

Case in point. Believe it or not. I do. And my advice is sound. Do not be too flippin cheap to buy 1 box of factory loaded ammo to put in your self defense handgun.

 

 

EDITED FOR CORRECT ADDRESS

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Well, it get's perpetuated in every gun rag out there, and also by a lot of gun instructors.

 

Like many urban legends - it takes on a truth of it's own in the re-telling.

 

In fact, while it is a potential liability in a questionable case, it is also easily defeated in the same way.

Just make sure your attorney understands that you use reloaded ammunition because it enables you to practice more,

which you do out of due consideration for your social responsibilities to be a careful and practiced shooter,

and because it is a demonstrated more accurate load for you in this gun, also part of your due diligence in gun use.

 

Now - the other old-wives tale is to say nothing - because the cops are out to find a case against you.

That is clearly garbage. You need to immediately establish for the record that that so-and-so attacked you, you

acted in self defense, and you called for their help. After that you might chose to request a lawyer, but first - establish

for the record who is the attacker and who is defending.

 

LEO's - please chime in - what do you need to see and hear at the scene in establishing the protocol you're going to follow??

 

SC

 

Sorry for hijacking the post. Mod and OP, if you would like, I'll take it elsewhere. Pls advise. In the interim, pls see below. Google, in this case 'talking to police', can be your friend, just because it is on the internet, not everything is a lie, as well as not everything being the truth. And Oh, there can be a combination.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

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http://www.boiseshooters.com/index.php? ... 883.0;wap2

 

Case in point. Believe it or not. I do. And my advice is sound. Do not be too flippin cheap to buy 1 box of factory loaded ammo to put in your self defense handgun.

 

 

 

All I got was a ad for a TacGirls calendar.

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That story was about a man being tried for murdering his wife after he blabberd too much in the first place. Nothing to do with self defense.

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That story was about a man being tried for murdering his wife after he blabberd too much in the first place. Nothing to do with self defense.

You are correct. However, it did have to do with RELOADED AMMUNITION in a handgun used for self defense, that his wife took from the drawer, threated him, and then either killed herself or was killed by him.

 

 

......The ordeal had lasted well over a decade. It had not only bankrupted Danny Bias, but had devastated him and his family. Today, though still an ardent bowhunter and archer, he is a convicted felon forbidden to own firearms.

 

The Lessons

 

First, if there is someone in your home who has a history of suicide attempts or other mental health issues, do not leave firearms accessible to them. If you have this situation and feel a need to be armed, keep the handgun on your person dawn to dusk, thus secure from others' hands but always accessible to yours, and when you prepare to sleep, put it in a quick-release lock box to which only you know the combination. There are those who would argue leaving the loaded gun where a person in that state of mind could reach it might in itself be so reckless as to warrant a Manslaughter charge.

 

Second, always remember that after a high-stress incident you'll be in no state of mind for a lucid discussion with an investigator who may suspect you of murder, as will typically be the case when a husband is alone with a wife who dies violently. Looking back today, Attorney Elizabeth Smith says, "I don't think it would have gone to trial if he hadn't given a statement. I don't think without that, they could have brought the case. They kept going back to the statement, 'It couldn't have happened the way he said it did.'"

 

Third, there is a strong case to be made for reserving reloaded ammo for practice, training, competition, and hunting and loading defensive firearms only with modern, factory-made ammunition.

 

Trouble With Handloads

 

I decided to focus on this case this month after an interminable discussion that ran over five computer threads on four elcctronic Internet forums on the subject of liability that can be incurred by using handloads in defensive firearms. I took the position I take here--don't use handloads in defensive firearms--and challenged those who preferred them to give a tactically sound reason why.

 

With thousands of views logged, the only reasons for carrying reloads were: "I get an inch at 25 yards with my loads, and only 2" groups with HydraShok." This, I submit, is not a decisive advantage, and if you think it is, there are many affordable factory handguns that will put five shots in an inch at 25 yards with the right factory ammo. See American Handgunner 2006 Tactical Annual, page 82.

 

"I save as much as 50 cents a cartridge with my carry reloads." Balance that against Danny Bias' six-figure legal bill in just his first trial, not at all uncommon in murder cases, and factory amino can be extraordinarily cheap insurance. Once you know your gun feeds with your preferred factory round, you can pretty much duplicate it for practice and get your cost savings there.

 

"My amino is more reliable than factory." One poster noted his pistol had locked up on him when he fired a factory cartridge that didn't have a flash-hole, a one-in-million occurrence. While you may well be one of those very few who can actually handcraft better amino, is it enough to warrant the liability it brings? And when you're accused of handloading "to make deadlier ammo" (as happened in another case, N.H. v. James Kennedy), can you convince a jury of 12 lay people you make better cartridges by yourself, after work, with a few thousand dollars worth of hobbyist equipment, than is produced at a vast ammunition factory with quality control and trained engineers?

 

The "regular bullets weren't deadly enough for you" argument is not the big reason I recommend against handloads for defense. The forensic replicability factor is the main reason. Listen to John Lanza, who had to fight for Danny Bias' future in court.

 

"When a hand load is used in an incident which becomes the subject of a civil or criminal trial, the duplication of that hand load poses a significant problem for both the plaintiff" or the prosecutor and the defendant. Once used, there is no way, with certainty, to determine the amount of powder or propellant used for that load. This becomes significant when forensic testing is used in an effort to duplicate the shot and the resulting evidence on the victim or target. Stippling or powder residue, and its amount, would relate to the distance between the barrel of the firearm and the victim or target. Lack of powder residue would reflect a distant shot as opposed to the presence of powder residue which would reflect or prove a close shot," explains Attorney Lanza, who adds, "With the commercial load, one would be in a better position to argue the uniformity between the loads used for testing and the subject load."

 

When I asked Elizabeth Smith about the handload crippling Danny's defense, she replied, "You're certainly right about that. Gunshot residue was absolutely the focus of the first trial. The prosecution kept going back to the statement, 'It couldn't have happened the way he said it did.'"........

 

Choose to beieve what you want. I stand by my beliefs. Factory ammo in all self defense handguns. My prayer is that none of us EVER has to experience using deadly force. But we should all be prepared to.

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Case in point. Believe it or not. I do. And my advice is sound. Do not be too flippin cheap to buy 1 box of factory loaded ammo to put in your self defense handgun.

 

 

The defendents story had more holes in it than swiss cheese. I support the prosecutor's decision to file charges despite the final outcome.

 

Since we are getting off topic here Ayoob makes a very, very good living as a expert witness in questionable shooting cases. He has made use of handloads a sacred cow.

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You are correct. However, it did have to do with RELOADED AMMUNITION in a handgun used for self defense, that his wife took from the drawer, threated him, and then either killed herself or was killed by him.

 

Quite correct. BUT... it's a case of SEVERAL DIFFERENT LOADS IN THE SAME GUN! If you keep decent records of your defence ammo, and use it consistantly, you shouldn't have a problem.

 

One case doesn't set a pattern. Massod Ayoob has been harping on this for over twenty years, and he only has this one case. I wouldn't be too concerned.

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Are these "re-loads"?

BAD idea for a SD gun. When you get to court AFTER the shooting, you will be 'eat'n alive" for for using reloads.

Respectfully,

LG

 

With all due respect, I would bet that no one here can cite (citation required!) a single case in which a person using a gun to defend himself (or herself) got into trouble over the type of ammo, reloads or otherwise.

 

In my years of practicing law, and researching cases, I've never heard of reloads or ammo type being an issue. The only place I have encountered anyone concerned with type of ammo is on gun forums such as this.

 

If I am wrong, please refer me to the case, because I sure would like to know about it. And I don't mean stories, "well, several years ago...." ~ I mean a proper citation to a case that we all can go read.

 

Getting in trouble over reloads, is, in my opinion, an urban myth.

 

Buena suerte, amigos,

eGG

abogado, retired

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Given that you already carry a G26 that works for you, why change? It's small, light, and easy to conceal. The 9mm is more powerful than a .380 with even the best ammo and has a better bullet selection. 115's for summer, 147's for winter to make up for heavy clothing. The 9mm continues to be the minimum allowable carry caliber for Police duty carry so that says something too for acceptable performance.

 

My off duty carry choice has been to carry a S&W full size (currently a 9mm) semi-auto in the winter then switch to a Mod 49 or later a 340PD with 38Spl +P Gold Dots for summer. The small autos are great little guns but when it gets down and dirty, unless you have distance, the semi can be your enemy too. Think about it, if you stick your G26 in someone's belly and squeeze, you have one reliable shot because the slide can be held open by their clothes. A wheel gun will continue to fire.

 

My son is a local DS who carries a S&W 340PD as his backup and a G27 for off duty. Seems to be a common practice with police out here. My 2 cents worth.

 

Jailhouse Jim

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We recently purchased the S&W Bodyguard 380. It is a fine pocket pistol and the 380 round will in most cases cause someone hit with it to reconsider a second or third helping (unlike going back for more pie which is pleasurable). It bit my wif's web between thumb and fore finger and she decided she likes her Beretta 84 better, I prefer my 1911, BUT for a short walk around the block, or a trip at 11 pm for cough syrup... that S&W gets the nod.

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I just went through this purchase as well. I almost went with a Kahr in .40 S&W and did not because it was a fairly heavy gun. Weight needed for the rather snappy .40 cal. I ended up with a Ruger LC9 and Desantis deep tuck holster. The LC9 will fit in my pocket almost a well as my keltec P32.

 

One thing to check out... I have shot DA sbubbies for a long time. I have a Taurus 85 and a similar Rossi in 38s. The LC9 has avery similar trigger pull when compared to the DA snubbies I have. That is to say... the LC9 trigger must be pulled back abount 1 inch for every shot, just like a DA snubbie. No short trigger on second shots. It is a very consistent trigger as well. Also, it is very light weight and does snap/jump with defense ammo. I had to practice a bit to get the feel down. Practive with a carry gun is required anyway.

 

Good luck with your choice. I like my LC9... its the beast.

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Since most .380 and 9x18's use a simple blowback action I fail to see what would be gained in the way of performance with reloads, especially when using FMJ ammunition. A case could be made for cost savings and during the recent ammo scare lack of availability of commercially loaded ammo.

 

L.G. has seen the elephant twice so his opinion carries weight, However use of reloads by LEO's is usually forbidden by departments mostly for politicial reasons.

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I know that some have shot thousands of reload rounds without a problem, but some aren't as proficient at reloading and that's why I still see squibs and missfires on the line all the time. If you are absolutely confident in your reloading skills then by all means carry reloads, but as for me I'd rather take my chances on factory loads.....just sayin.

 

KK

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L.G. has seen the elephant twice so his opinion carries weight,

 

 

Oh really? We all have our opinions that carry just as much weight.

we need PROOF, not OPINIONS.

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Oh really? We all have our opinions that carry just as much weight.

we need PROOF, not OPINIONS.

 

 

I too have been in a few shootings. My Department forbade anything other than factory ammo and you know what? I had no problem with that. My way of thinking is that I can make ammo cheaper than Winchester, Federal, Remington, or CCI, but I can't make it better.

 

My worst nightmares when still a sworn Officer were facing a gunman, pulling my sidearms to return fire and hearing "CLICK!!!" Factory ammo took one more variable against me away.

 

That is bankable...

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

C'mon fellas... hell... when ya dam life is involved... I bet nobody starts pickin' and choosin' ammo. They just gonna grab.

 

Who worry's 'bout the momma's screams... at the ER... just findin' out that her son is dead... after ya just kilt him while he was tryin' to kill you. You layin' in the next room... face up... lookin' at the bright lights... morphed up... hearin' them screams. Who thinks of that while they are loadin' up? Deep down... in yore heart... you gotta convince yaself that "you are alive"... only because of what you did. Just be prepared to hear them screams... all yore existance above ground.

 

If you can face life afterds... even though ya can't never get the screams and the cryin' outta yore head... you know you did the right thing. You got to know it deep down. 99% is the "situational reaction"... you gotta live with you, afterwards.

 

Somethin' as minutely insignificant... as a silly-a$$ reload worry.... ain't nothin'.

 

Gosh... what some folks worry 'bout.

 

ts

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I have always preferied a 45 when things turn bad. However most men I have know including myself will almost all the time carry a backup gun. I have carried a J-frame S&W at times and have a few times carried a 380 when I have a suit and tie on and where I dont expect trouble. My favorite is the new Sig 1911 lookalike in 380.

 

Now from experence about a back up gun. If I were to be expecting excitment, Knowing there was a good chance things in the very near future were about to go to hell, Myself and a few others in the same boat would slip an extra 45 Auto in the back under the belt for quick use with a couple of extra mags in a pocket for quick use. The above would be knowing You would be outnumbered and you had no backup or any hope of any coming. This is not what the subject matter today is about.

 

For the average person who plans to carry, As said many times its better than nothing at all to have a small caliber gun and KNOW WHAT TO DO. I know a handgun is never ones first choice but sometimes walking in a place with a rifle or shotgun in your hands would not be wise, So should you decide to carry heat understand your limits beforehand and know how to turn the odds in your favor.

 

Know THIS; With a small caliber gun should you find yourself in a fight you have to know what limits you have to over come with a small caliber in your hands. First you should be at close range but not so close to permit the subject from grabbing your gun and next plan on putting your first shot where it will do the most good. This is moreso with winter clothes and the head is always your best choice to take out a man the fastest. Even a small caliber to the head will most of the time give you time to place your secound shot well and a second headshot would be your best bet most always. With a small gun and being up close at the start of a fight trying to place a couple of fast well placed shots then back a few staps back out of range because you never know how a man will react after he is hit and at the same time watch for others who may want to get in on the action. Backing up to before when the action started, Look around to see where you can take cover should he retrun the action to you or his friends try to get in on the action. You may find yourself against a couple of drugged up dudes or a pair of robbers. One of the first things You should note is are there people who will run in front of you and the subject before or after it is going on. Your line of fire both between the subject and behind him must be know. Another thing is never contuine to shoot a subject after he is down and out of the fight. If You do your part in the beginning the fight will be stopped fast and in most cases less than a few seconds and its all over. Then Keep your mouth shut until your attorney is next to you. The worst part is not the fight because its over before you know it but rather waiting for the Grand Jury to bill or no bill you. My experence with this was the fastest was a no bill two weeks later and the longest was just over two long years of waiting for a true no bill.

 

Closing, Remember to make your first shots count the best and turn the odds in your favor. I want to stress to My Pards, The greatest single thing you can do in a case most of the time is use the same thing the old Gunfighters and Rangers used and that is HAVE YOUR GUN AND PLANS READY before it gets past ever other way out and you have no other choice left. I think Pards who have been there will agree with me that a 22 or a 45 is not as important as where you place your shots. { this is a serious subject and not for the weak of heart}

 

Your Pard, Texas Man

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I reload for every gun I own. But they are strictly for the range, hunting & CAS. All my carry pieces are stoked with +P JHP ammo for serious social shooting.

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:FlagAm: Rule #1 for a gunfight....have a gun. Get something you will carry comfortably and learn to shoot it proficiently. .380 should be your minimum. There are some great guns which do not cost a fortune and some really good ammo out there by Hornady, Speer and Federal. Yes bigger is better but as a weapons instructor told me once, its not the size of the weapon, its the fury of the attack. :FlagAm:
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IRA hitmen carried the Colt .25 auto with hollowpoints. It seemed sufficient for them. I would say that .380 should be sufficient as well.

 

 

Up the Brits!!!! PP

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IRA hitmen carried the Colt .25 auto with hollowpoints. It seemed sufficient for them. I would say that .380 should be sufficient as well.

 

 

Up the Brits!!!! PP

 

 

"hitman" indicates someone who basically picked the location, time and situation to ambush their pray. With that, a 22cal would do if the shot was placed in a very stratisic location, like behind the ear.,,, multiple times if need be. Completely different situation than a very pissed off person on /off drugs or mentally unstable state that really wanted to do you harm.

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"hitman" indicates someone who basically picked the location, time and situation to ambush their pray. With that, a 22cal would do if the shot was placed in a very stratisic location, like behind the ear.,,, multiple times if need be. Completely different situation than a very pissed off person on /off drugs or mentally unstable state that really wanted to do you harm.

+1

 

The goal isn't in killing the threat - it's stopping the threat.

 

You can inject him with a syringe full of AIDS infected serum if you wanted to kill him,

it's just that it takes a bit longer to work than most want to wait.

 

The purpose of shooting is to stop the threat - and it is commonly accepted that larger

diameter and more powerful ammunition is more likely to expand and thus cut arteries or hit

something vital, resulting in more immediate cessation of attack. .380's and .32's often

do not retain enough velocity when shot from such small guns to reliably expand, some do,

making them what is usually referred to as a minimum caliber.

 

It's a matter of probability, there are no guarantee's in this field. Folks have taken

multiple hits from .45's, and then called for an ambulance ride, while others go down in

one from a .22.

 

Bottom line for me is to have a gun I trust to be first - reliable, and secondly - accurate.

After that it's all about luck, and if I'm unlucky enough to get into a gun fight, I hope

I'm at least lucky enough to have enough gun for the threat . . . . .

 

SC

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+1

 

The goal isn't in killing the threat - it's stopping the threat.

 

 

Yeah but if the perp is dead there is only your side of the story and little chance of a lawsuit. Not that I would ever shoot someone.

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It was a sad day that I let my little stainless Mustang go, I did feel some level of comfort with it. I now find myself carrying the little Jetfire .25 in its place most of the time. When rambling outside at night I will grab one of the big .45s but realistically it will not be the one I have with me in a pinch. Do not know about you guys but I live in a small rural community next to a much larger problem community. There is seldom a week goes by that we do not have home invasions (one yesterday), bank robbery this morning and killings, all within three to five miles of my front door. As close as that is I do not have a house that can be seen from my property and when the shooting starts those neighbours who can hear it will think it is hunting or target practice. For some reason the problem fokes have not been making the turn down our lonely highway but sooner or later they will come for the rich neighbours gold and mistake me for a target also. What makes this scary is that it now occurs most often during the day, when we have our guard down somewhat. They will not come for me at night while I am out with the dogs and carrying a big gun or dead-bolted in with the serious artillery at hand, but rather during the day while I'm piddling around with only the little .25 in my pocket and the sop for these guys indicates that there will be three or four of them. Take my word for it, you will not want whatever it is you are carrying to get tangled up in a pocket cause these thugs are hitting fast and unexpected.

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Yeah but if the perp is dead there is only your side of the story and little chance of a lawsuit. Not that I would ever shoot someone.

 

 

Perp has family that thinks he was an angle. There is your chance of a lawsuit.

 

Yep one story,,, so long as evidence supports your story.,,,, or not... any witnesses?... your story jives after the xxxxth explanation to police?

 

 

Edit: If perp happens to die because of what you did to stop the threat, then there will be less of a problem with the law.

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OK, so in my old age I'm going to sell my Glock 26 (9mm)because I just want to a lighter CC gun. Many say today that a .380 with quality (i.e. Hornady or similar) self-defense ammo is plenty good enough. Some say as good as or better that .38 +P with a "snubby."

 

In my previous post I asked about the new Kimber Solo (9mm) and didn't get great support for that.

 

So, what say ye about a .380 with the right ammo? Maybe a Sig P290 or S&W "Bodyguard," or a Ruger LCP .380.

 

Major Payne :FlagAm:

 

Is it OK? Sure, insofar as it meets the standard of "Have a gun, ANY gun..." After that, I see you are getting some advice on the subject.

 

Olen

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