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Concealed Carry Question


Major Pain

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Yeah but if the perp is dead there is only your side of the story and little chance of a lawsuit. Not that I would ever shoot someone.

 

 

Lawsuits are most often filed by family members of the person who you shot and killed. I know this firsthand...

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Lawsuits are most often filed by family members of the person who you shot and killed. I know this firsthand...

 

True but they will have to convince the jury that drug dealing and robbery were lawful employment. Plus you do not have to worry about paying the scumbags medical bills and financial support for the rest of his life.

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It is not the ideal caliber but if you practice tactically until you are competent in many different scenarios it will be much better than nothing. Shot placement under stress is critical with smaller calibers. Not easy, but it can be done.

I carry a 1911 mostly but when the occasion warrants it I will carry a 380 Govt Model.

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

True but they will have to convince the jury that drug dealing and robbery were lawful employment. Plus you do not have to worry about paying the scumbags medical bills and financial support for the rest of his life.

 

 

Wrong... in my civil case... all they had to prove was that my actions contributed to "51% or more" of the cause of death. Years past... and just 'bout the cost of a new home later... not sure if you know the full story.

 

ts

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It was a sad day that I let my little stainless Mustang go, I did feel some level of comfort with it. I now find myself carrying the little Jetfire .25 in its place most of the time.

 

I suggest that you take a look at the Seacamp 32 acp. Stainless steel, more serious caliber, small size for easy pocket carry.

 

Disclaimer: Due to my Christian faith and a loyal Democrat I would not ever use a firearm to defend myself. All of my comments are based on what I believe that white middle conservatives would do while clinging to the Bible and their guns. :P

 

p.s. Oh and while hiding behind their wife's skirt. :blush:

 

p.s.s. I like hiding behind my wife's skirt. :lol:

 

p.s.s.s. Does this mean I'm not a liberal after all? OH NO! :o

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True but they will have to convince the jury that drug dealing and robbery were lawful employment. Plus you do not have to worry about paying the scumbags medical bills and financial support for the rest of his life.

 

 

They don't have to prove squat. Juries are heavily influenced by tears....

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True but they will have to convince the jury that drug dealing and robbery were lawful employment. Plus you do not have to worry about paying the scumbags medical bills and financial support for the rest of his life.

 

 

"They" don't.... The Law will sort it out and YOU will have to pay for legal representation to prove what you did was legal, justifiable and all that good stuff. How well you are represented depends on your case circumstances and how much money and grit you have.

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Thanks to all, this has been a great discussion. As a career Army officer, all I ever carried was a 1911 (so you see I was before the change to the Beretta). I'm going to the local indoor range this week and shoot 2-3 of some of the pistols/revolvers mentioned. I think maybe the Ruger 9mm or a "snubby" may be the answer. At least a "snubby" goes "bang" every time without having to worry about a "jam" of some sort. Of course I know there are those who like greater ammo capacity. I'd probably lean toward a hammer less revolver to avoid any snagging problems. I wonder what the ratio of sales is i.e. "snubbies" with hammers vs those that are hammer less?

Major Payne :FlagAm:

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

They don't have to prove squat. Juries are heavily influenced by tears....

 

 

And don't forget....

 

A minority of white-folks in a Memphis court-room... bein' cow-towed and brow-beatin'...

 

They can all kiss my ass....

 

ts

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And don't forget....

 

A minority of white-folks in a Memphis court-room... bein' cow-towed and brow-beatin'...

 

They can all kiss my ass....

 

ts

 

 

Agreed............

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Never heard of a hit-man using the much under powered 25acp before. But I know of several professional hits that were made to the back of the skull by one or two 22LR HPs.

 

I once got a call to a domestic violence incident. Hubby & wifey had a loud verbal argument. Hubby thought it was over and laid down on the sofa to take a nap. Little woman was still fuming and retrieved her Jennings 25acp from her purse in the bedroom, returned to the living room and shot sleeping hubby in the middle of his forehead. Bullet entered the skin, traveled around the skull and exited above his left ear. Hubby had powder burns and an extreme headache and required 4 stitches to close his exit wound and a butterfly bandage over the entrance. I arrested the little woman for attempted homicide. Public defender plea bargained the charge down to aggravated assault & wifey did 9 mo in the county grey bar hotel. While there hubby divorced her.

 

Until that incident I carried a Colt Jr. 25acp in a wallet holster in my R hip pocket as a backup piece. I swapped it in on a NAA 22mag Mini Revolver. Still got it. More people are killed with a 22lr than any other caliber simply because they are they most carried. They are small and inexpensive, ammo is cheap & the are easily concealed. Women seem to like them because there is little recoil. The first homicide I ever worked, they guy was shot in the chest and died on the operating table beacuse the bullet tumbled around inside and tore several holes in his lungs and he drowned in his own blood because the surgeon couldn't patch the holes fast enough. John Hinkley shot President Reagan with a 22 and he almost died for the very same reason.

 

Oh BTW, here in Texas if you shoot and wound a perpatrator during the commission of a misdemeanor or felony he/she cannot sue his/her intended victim for damages. Neither can a 3rd party (spouse or child or next of kin) if you kill said perpitrator. The premise of the legislature in passing that law is that if the perp hadn't been committing a crime he wouldn't have been injured or killed in the first place. In the not too distant past I had to point that law out to an attorney and a Texas Ranger. So if you're a law dawg or lawyer check your state laws. That law has been on the books in Tx since Jan. 1, '95. I'm sure some other states have the same or similar laws.

 

Two other thing, if you're going to carry a gun, practice, practice & practice some more with every gun you carry and with the same ammo you carry in that gun. That is one thing that will probably come up for sure in the Grand Jury proceedings. Know your target and be able to hit the same under stress. Should you shoot at an attacker, miss and hit an innocent bystander you're in serious trouble.

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Never heard of a hit-man using the much under powered 25acp before. But I know of several professional hits that were made to the back of the skull by one or two 22LR HPs.

 

As an aside, I got bored a year or so ago and went looking for ballistics comparing the 25 ACP with the 22 LR out of the same barrel length (or close to it) and out of the short little barrels (2.5-3") the ballistics were virtually identical, wasn't more then about 5-10 foot pounds difference at the muzzle.

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As an aside, I got bored a year or so ago and went looking for ballistics comparing the 25 ACP with the 22 LR out of the same barrel length (or close to it) and out of the short little barrels (2.5-3") the ballistics were virtually identical, wasn't more then about 5-10 foot pounds difference at the muzzle.

The big debate when you're splitting such fine hairs is whether the soft lead bullet of the .22, which can get strange inside the body,

is preferable to the .25 FMJ, which is center-fire primed and usually more reliable for ignition. Sorta difficult to make a decision

about those two fine choices . . . but for me - I'd rather have a quality .22 like a Walther PP, and practice like all hell with it until

I can put four or five shots into a 1" area at light speed - it may not be a .44, but they will make a hole!

 

I still like my Kahr 9mm's!

 

SC

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Wrong... in my civil case... all they had to prove was that my actions contributed to "51% or more" of the cause of death. Years past... and just 'bout the cost of a new home later... not sure if you know the full story.

 

ts

 

No I don't but it sounds like something that would be useful to post.

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"They" don't.... The Law will sort it out and YOU will have to pay for legal representation to prove what you did was legal, justifiable and all that good stuff. How well you are represented depends on your case circumstances and how much money and grit you have.

 

In most states while the standard of evidence for a civil case is different there is not the presumption of guilt on the defendant. In such cases the lawsuit is all about the money. And any lawyyer worth his salt will tell you the case is decided at the jury selection level.

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The big debate when you're splitting such fine hairs is whether the soft lead bullet of the .22, which can get strange inside the body,

is preferable to the .25 FMJ, which is center-fire primed and usually more reliable for ignition. Sorta difficult to make a decision

about those two fine choices . . . but for me - I'd rather have a quality .22 like a Walther PP, and practice like all hell with it until

I can put four or five shots into a 1" area at light speed - it may not be a .44, but they will make a hole!

 

I still like my Kahr 9mm's!

 

SC

 

 

To all,

 

 

Question is with any of the 22caliber (small calibers as well) guns: What is the odds that it will stop the threat before injury to you? Of course, the odds increase with more hits on the perp. Some times you may only have time for one/two/three shots before he is on you, or has returned fire, and other times you may have the opportunity for more than the three shots.

 

Of course the 22/25/32 calibers will tag the perp so when he goes to the hospital, the police will then be notified and the investigation can begin there and lead back to you for your story, that is, if you are not seriously injured.

 

It is best to carry the largest caliber that you are capable of shooting well and will carry.

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In most states while the standard of evidence for a civil case is different there is not the presumption of guilt on the defendant. In such cases the lawsuit is all about the money. And any lawyyer worth his salt will tell you the case is decided at the jury selection level.

 

 

You have to make it through the criminal courts first before facing the civil court. If you are found guilty of something there (criminal side), that will make the civil lawsuit that much more difficult, like being convicted of being the attacker (still engaging the perp after he has turned and started to run away) rather than being the innocent victum being assulted. Point being, you have to make it past the criminal side of the law before the civil side of the lawsuit begins and that is where you need the best representation first, then you need the best representation for the civil side.

At least that is how I see it.

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They don't have to prove squat. Juries are heavily influenced by tears....

 

THAT"S A FACT :excl:

Been down that road(sewer)myownself.

Folks that have NOT been down that road have NO CLUE what it can/will do to you and your family.

LG

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Carry a Ruger LCP with -Cor-Bon 90 gr. JHP - the most powerful .380 hollowpoint for this weapon.

There is a outstanding article by Chuck Hawks on ammo for self defence at the site

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

Malor Bill

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For what it's worth, I've done some testing with Hornady's Critical Defense ammo in .380 auto. Penetration and expansion were impressive, to say the least. I have no doubt, as has been mentioned before, that a .380 auto with the proper ammo will take care of a potentially bad situation. As a result, I have no qualms whatsoever in slipping my Ruger LCP into my jacket pocket whenever I go out. Sure, there are calibers out there that will pack more of a punch, but like a friend of mine once said, "How much deader than dead can you kill a guy?"

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For what it's worth, I've done some testing with Hornady's Critical Defense ammo in .380 auto. Penetration and expansion were impressive, to say the least. I have no doubt, as has been mentioned before, that a .380 auto with the proper ammo will take care of a potentially bad situation. As a result, I have no qualms whatsoever in slipping my Ruger LCP into my jacket pocket whenever I go out. Sure, there are calibers out there that will pack more of a punch, but like a friend of mine once said, "How much deader than dead can you kill a guy?"

 

 

I have seen charts showing the percentile of one-shot stops by the various pistol calibers. I believe the info was compiled from FBI data. I did save it but at this time can not find it on my computer. Anyway, as memory goes, the 380 was around the 60% range. I do understand that this data can probably be argued to some degree but at least it is a good indicator on how the varios calibers stack up against each other.

 

I have nothing really against the 380 and occassionally carry one myself. I know its limits, but there are times, that the smallish firearm is the only feasible solution (manner of dress and the social setting) to the particular situation.

 

As far as your friends statement. I don't care how dead he is, I do care that the threat is stopped without being injured. Having the perb perish days later is not the goal. Stopping the treat immediately is.

 

Just a thought.

 

Blastmaster

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Major Payne,

 

You are NOT going to get s straight answer on the issue of carry ammo and caliber. There is a similiar thread going on another forum and I posted the research of Marshall and Sanow in their books Handgun Stopping Power and Street Stoppers. Immediately several posters claimed the M&S lied in their research.

 

My real life experience has convinced me the FMJ is a better choice than hollow points in the 380 or 9x18 as it has with several other pards. The bullet has to reach the vital organs to do it's job.

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That's what I like about Texas "castle doctrine", no civil suits are allowed.

 

Surprisingly, Maryland (really) enacted its own castle doctrine law in 2010. No civil suits allowed unless the home owner is convicted of a criminal offense related to the shooting. Otherwise, the perp or his relatives cannot sue.

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I have never ever shot anyone in my 66 years. And I hope that I never have to. That being said (that all my knowledge is hearsay) I have recommendations from two friends. One is an ex-homicide cop and one an ex-border patrol officer, both still active in guns/gunsmithing. They both recommend Speer Gold Dot as having the best bullet.

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Better than throwing rocks!There are several 9mm options now that makes a far better carry gun and the size of the newer 9's aren't much larger than a .380Examples: Rohrbaugh R:-9 ; Ruger LC 9With the right ammo the .380 can be effective.IMO, Extreme Shock Cartridges are the Best for personal defense

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  • 1 month later...

I will join the Kahr crowd here!

My CC gun is the Kahr MK40 Elite (all stainless). At 23 ounces it's a bit heavier, but still becomes unnoticeable in my IWB Don Hume holster. It is still a very small pistol, but it packs a big punch. It is a bit "snappy", but the recoil is absolutely manageable, I could shoot it all day with no discomfort. It has a VERY smooth DA0 trigger, around 5 lbs. Reviews I have read say it will shoot around 2" @ 25 yards, but the guys doing those reviews have mastered the long double-action pull and I haven't. I'm working on that. So far about the best I can do is 5" at 10 yards, but that's "minute of bad guy" so I do carry it. I will get better. I have just installed a Laserlyte rear-sight laser, but haven't gotten to the range yet to dial that in. I am thinking / hoping that should make a dramatic improvement in my accuracy. The pistol is absolutely reliable - I have over 1,000 rounds through it without a single malfunction of any kind - even when I limp-wrist it. It is not fussy about what I feed it either - it runs reliably no matter what I have fed it so far.

 

And just in case I get attacked by a rabid mouse I also carry a NAA 22 magnum mini-revolver. Hey - don't laugh. Believe it or not I can put all 5 rounds into a cantelope @ 20 yards with it. Up close and personal I would have no problem at all rapidly putting them all into a bad guy's head.

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I have never ever shot anyone in my 66 years. And I hope that I never have to. That being said (that all my knowledge is hearsay) I have recommendations from two friends. One is an ex-homicide cop and one an ex-border patrol officer, both still active in guns/gunsmithing. They both recommend Speer Gold Dot as having the best bullet.

The Speer Gold Dot likes to advertise that it exceeds the FBI ammo testing protocols, which it does. But the Winchester PDX1 ammo got the highest FBI protocol scores ever recorded.

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Get this one and you will have plenty of rounds!!

http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/thunder-plus.html

That Bersa 380 may have 15 rounds, but 90% of gunfights are over in 3 rounds or less. My Kahr MK40 is actually smaller (shorter, less height less width) than this Bersa 380, and weighs only 3 oz more. There are quite a number of 9mm pistols this small as well. I would rather have 6 or 7 rounds of 9mm or 40 S&W than 50 rounds of 380!

 

On the other hand, that Bersa is SA/DA, and if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with a DA0 auto, you might be well-advised to choose the Bersa and stick to SA. The most powerful round in the world ain't worth a tinker if you can't hit anything with it. But I have no idea if the Bersa actually has an EASY SA trigger pull or not ... if the pull is heavy, forget it.

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For the most part it's not calibre, it's shot placement. I read some comments about lack of penetration. That's why I stagger HPs and FMJ ammo in my Sig.

 

Barry Sloe

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