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I made the call


Rance - SASS # 54090

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Our local annual True Grit match.. :rolleyes:

Ya shoot 2 rifles.. 4 pistols and anywhere from 8 to 10 shotgun every stage.. :blink: .

 

The call happened on stage four.. pistols, rifles, and then shotgun.. shooter silver senior.. fast shooter..

Got thru his pistols with 4 misses.. shot his rifles clean... got to his shotgun..

the shotgun order was 4 knockdowns any order til down and then when all are down.. engage the 4 swingers

 

Shooter grabbed his shotgun..mowed down the first three.. shot the 4th.. still standing... shot again.. still standing.. shot again.. still standing.. finally on 4th. shot it fell. and he went on to the swingers...

Lot of time and 4 misses...

 

next shooter... all 4 shotgun knockdowns went down.. next shooter.. same 4th. knockdown.. stayed up... took 2-3 shots.. went down..

The RO felt that something was wrong with the 4th. shotgun knockdown.. announced that there might be a problem with the 4th. shotgun target.. and if they see a good hit.. they will call it down..

He then asked the first 3 shooters if they wanted a reshoot... Silver Senior said yes.. next 2 shooters said no.. we'll take what we got..

 

I was not RO.. I was brass shagger and loading table officer..

When silver senior came to the loading table to do his reshoot.. he told me that he'd better be clean because he already has 4 misses against him...

 

What??? He said the RO told him that his misses would carry over... We had 2 RO's on the stage..

I called one of them over and told him that misses didn't carry over for a reshoot.. only "P's" and MSV's and such..

RO told me.. "What if he blazes away and has an excellent stage... the problem came with the last of the shooters stage.. the shotgun.."

I'm thinkin'..(I know.. that's scarey) that has nothing to do with this.. I again explained that misses don't carry over..

 

They didn't buy my call..I told them to ask the Match Director when we were finished..

Shooter took his reshoot.. had 4 pistol misses again.. and maybe bettered his score by a second or two.. still had trouble with shotgun knockdowns... (Oh by the way.. no one else had problems with the knockdowns.. some folks were just missin' them)

 

The RO's went to the score keeper and give her the shooters time.. and said add 8 misses.. 4 on first run and 4 on second run..

 

I again said that misses didn't carry over.. I told them they again need to keep the scores separate and ask the Match Director.. still not buying my program..

They made reasoning that since he took the reshoot they carried over... I said "When you gave him a reshoot.. all misses are erased.." I was told .. "We didn't give him a reshoot.. We asked him if he wanted one and he said yes" :wacko:

I gave up and said take the matter to the Match Director..

 

Rance <_<

Right call or not? :wacko:

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YOU are correct.

 

On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward.
SHB p.21

 

Doesn't matter if the shooter "takes" or is "given" the reshoot for a legitimate reason...in this case, prop failure.

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Right call. Misses do not carry over. You have the rule correctly.

 

Page 21 in the Handbook:

On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over

clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward.

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YOU are correct.

 

SHB p.21

 

Doesn't matter if the shooter "takes" or is "given" the reshoot for a legitimate reason...in this case, prop failure.

 

 

Thanks PWB and Doc.. appreciate the fast reply..

Go back Sunday to finish the match..

 

 

Rance <_<

thinkin' I made the right call :blush:

but now thinkin' we got some scarey RO's :wacko:

 

I think they started having second thoughts about giving the shooter the reshoot.. as they rest of the posse knocked the 4th shotgun target down without problems.. even my Featherlites took it down.. without much aimin' :blink:

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...I called one of them over and told him that misses didn't carry over for a reshoot.. only "P's" and MSV's and such..

...

 

Minor correction..."P"s don't carry over either...only MSV's.

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You've gotten your answer and I certainly agree with it.

 

My only comment is that only the shooter can protest a call. OK, I looked it up, only the shooter can file an "official protest"

 

RO II Page 13

ONLY the individual who was the subject of the original call may file an official

protest

 

I certainly don't blame you for wanting to try to see that the rules were enforced correctly though. I imagine I would have spoken up as well.

 

Grizz

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Was there ever a time when misses did carry over? I seem to recall that from a while back.

 

The rule has been ACCRUED SAFETY PENALTIES ONLY for the past 10+ years (at least).

 

I found it written as such in the 2001 version of the RO1...as well as in the 2000 SHB.

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You've gotten your answer and I certainly agree with it.

 

My only comment is that only the shooter can protest a call. OK, I looked it up, only the shooter can file an "official protest"

 

RO II Page 13

ONLY the individual who was the subject of the original call may file an official protest

 

I certainly don't blame you for wanting to try to see that the rules were enforced correctly though. I imagine I would have spoken up as well.

 

Grizz

 

It appears that no one has filed an 'official protest' (yet), which would have been the SHOOTER's option.

 

All it would take to "fix" the situation would be for SOMEONE (like one of the RO's?...PM?...MD?) to refer to the RULEBOOK, rather than refusing to apply the rules appropriately & then making excuses in order to penalize the shooter.

(which is how it looks at this point according to the OP)

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First off, If you have a problem target that isn't going down when hit you DON'T just call it "good" and move on, you call a downrange and FIX THE TARGET. It is UNFAIR to other shooters when calls are made like this (he hit it, no he didn't...it was good, no it wasn't)

 

Second, misses DO NOT carry over on reshoots. You done GOOD Rance! ;)

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Time to change RO's, then get someome that knows the rules. Have them sit on a stump and read the rules out loud for 30 minutes. Maybe next time they will lissen to someone that is in the right, not applying a know-it-all attitude.

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...

RO told me.. "What if he blazes away and has an excellent stage..."Hello TO, why else would we offer a reshoot other than to give the shooter a chance to do better than he/she did with the prop failure. :rolleyes: ...

Bravo Rance!

 

I think that folks who read the Wire acquire a better understanding of the rules. Posts like this are part of our education. Although you weren't 100% correct, your call was closer to correct than the TOs!

 

BTW, I think that TO has a bad attitude and should not be allowed to be a TO or PM. It's not about just knowing the rules, it's in what he said about the shooter blazing away. Sounds like he didn't want the shooter to do better. :angry:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Was there ever a time when misses did carry over? I seem to recall that from a while back.

The two earliest rule books I have are from 1989 and 1997, neither of which mentions "Reshoots". However, there was a time where the shooter carried over all previously earned penalties. The exception being for that target or firearm with a malfunction target. The theory being, that you shouldn't be allowed to better your score based on being able to have "practiced" the stage earlier. At the same time, reshoots were allowed for ammo or equipment (gun) failures. This was removed sometime in the early to mid '90s due to serious abuse.

 

I've got other handbooks, but not digitized, & some have seemingly "walked off"!

 

BTW: 1989 was the 2nd Ed, 1997 the 6th and by 2006 we were up to the 12th Ed. LOTS of changes in that 10 year span.

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Our local annual True Grit match.. :rolleyes:

Ya shoot 2 rifles.. 4 pistols and anywhere from 8 to 10 shotgun every stage.. :blink: .

 

I called one of them over and told him that misses didn't carry over for a reshoot.. only "P's" and MSV's and such..

Rance <_<

Right call or not? :wacko:

Rance you are correct misses don't carry over on a reshoot. But P's don't either, only Safety Violations.

 

Randy

 

Sorry, should have read all posts first, PaleWolf beat me to it.

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How come this was the first time I heard about it?

 

I was the match director

A lot of shooters do not like conflict, so they do not challenge what appears to them to be bad rulings by the RO. A couple of good friends are in that category. They don't really get upset about a bad ruling until they get home. They usually then just vote with their feet and don't go back to the club where the bad ruling happened. Some shooters do complain to the RO or Posse Marshal but are told the (bad) ruling is final and they do not try to protest the rulings to anyone else, most don't have any idea of the protest process at all. It is just human nature to avoid conflicts by many individuals. In this case where someone on the posse complained about the ruling, it appears the posse officials did not elect to run it up the line or even verify their ruling was correct. If anyone is at fault it is the RO and Posse Marshal for not running it up to the match director.

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hmmm. this must be one of the reasons I carry a current rule book in my ditty bag on my cart.

In situations like the OP described, it helps to be able to quote chapter and verse from black & white (or black & tan).

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hmmm. this must be one of the reasons I carry a current rule book in my ditty bag on my cart.

In situations like the OP described, it helps to be able to quote chapter and verse from black & white (or black & tan).

 

 

OOOOOOHHHH - Black & Tan or 90 Shilling or Dale's Pale Ale or ... or ... or ...... sorry - got off track...

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