Spades Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Hi all, I've just been shooting CAS in 49er class for just one year. No one is shooting black powder. So...........I loaded up some 45Colt with black powder last weekend and went to the range to test them out. I only had 180gr bullets layin around so that's what I used. I used Elephant BP and loaded them up. It was a kick (not literally), but I'm convinced now I will shoot it at matches as soon as I get a side by side SG. I've read most all the posts here on what folks recommend and I'm pretty much on information overload. Would any of you CAS shooters, that shoot BP, tell me your typical scenario for shooting a BP match? Let's say a 6 stage match. How many stages can you shoot before having to do some cleaning. What do you use to clean with between stages; revolvers & rifle? And, do you all immediately put spent cartridges in some kind of cleaning solution you carry with you? My Uberti revolver cylinder was getting sticky after 10 rounds. I know there's a lot of information pertaining to this, so if you'd like to keep it off the site that's ok, you can email me here =>Email me Thank you for your input and help Spades McDuff Arizona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Dastardly SASS #45219 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Howdy Spades, If you'll load and shoot Big Lube®LLC bullets you'll have no need to clean to maintain accuracy or function. These bullets haul so much lube that the fouling stays soft and blows out with the next shot. Yer second shot and yer last shot all encounter the same amount of fouling. Load your bullets snug to the black powder compressing it about 1/16" to 1/8" and you'll have the right load. I'm talkin' Genuine Powder here, the One True Powder, Holy Black. Not some sub/replica kiss yer sister stuff. For yer scatterguns you'll find loading BP very easy. Use roughly equal VOLUMES, not weights, of fineshot and powder and build your wad column with Circle Fly wads to leave the right room for a nice crimp. I prefer a roll crimp. Primers are of little concern because black powder is so easy to ignite that most any will do. No need for "Magnum" unless the price is lower. When the match is over, a spritz of Moosemilk (1 part Ballistol : 10 parts water) down the bore and a pull of the boresnake and yer good to go. I've won many a six pack of my favorite malt beverage by demonstrating how I can clean my pistols, rifle and shotgun all sparkling clean inside fifteen minutes. I've yet to buy any on that bet and my guns are cleaner, with no rust, than most that shoot heathen fad smokeyless powder. Hope this helps. DD-DLoS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Spades - If your revolvers are getting sticky after 10 rounds something is not right. You mentioned you used some bullets you had laying around. I assume these are bullets you would normally use for smokeless powder. That crayon wax-like librication on the bullet does not mix well with the real BP. If you want to continue using those bullets, try a bp-sub like APP. Thats what I use and I have no problems. Having said that, there are two places the revolvers can gum up. Fouling on the cylinder face could be rubbing on the rear end of the barrel (wipe the cylinder face down with baristol after every stage.). The cylinder arbor is getting full of fouling(remove the cylinder and clean pin and center hole of cylinder with baristol after every stage.). The ulimate solution is to get bullets with BP compatible lube and lots of it. Welcome to the dark side!! Chancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Hi all, I've just been shooting CAS in 49er class for just one year. No one is shooting black powder. So...........I loaded up some 45Colt with black powder last weekend and went to the range to test them out. I only had 180gr bullets layin around so that's what I used. I used Elephant BP and loaded them up. It was a kick (not literally), but I'm convinced now I will shoot it at matches as soon as I get a side by side SG. I've read most all the posts here on what folks recommend and I'm pretty much on information overload. Would any of you CAS shooters, that shoot BP, tell me your typical scenario for shooting a BP match? Let's say a 6 stage match. How many stages can you shoot before having to do some cleaning. What do you use to clean with between stages; revolvers & rifle? And, do you all immediately put spent cartridges in some kind of cleaning solution you carry with you? My Uberti revolver cylinder was getting sticky after 10 rounds. I know there's a lot of information pertaining to this, so if you'd like to keep it off the site that's ok, you can email me here =>Email me Thank you for your input and help Spades McDuff Arizona Howdy Spades, I eliminated cleaning problems in the middle of a shoot by going to all .44-40. and using Big Lube bullets. Best thing I ever did. It's a great round and if I wanna go smokeless for some crazy reason I can load 'em up with that crap too. Ya want to at least get your rifle in .44-40 the .45 in pistols is fine. As far as a shotgun I got a TTN with hammers, love it! Black powder is a hoot! Good luck to ya and welcome to the darkside. Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Colt, SASS #69404 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I mostly shoot 38sp with 777 and for a 6 stage match I'll probably take my revolver cylinders out after stage 3 and wipe everything down after a squirt of moose milk. I will pull a snake through the rifle at about the same time. Also will put a brush into the shotgun (where the shells go in) so things fall out better and do this every other stage. If I am using real black then I usually do the above steps on every other stage. YMMV. KC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I carry a jug with my brass cleaning solution in it on my cart. After each stage, all the brass goes into the jug with a quick shake. When I get to the house, jug gets drained and brass dried. Then it is into the media for reloading... I buy commercial bullets with a pretty big groove in them. I then melt the wax out and re-lube with my homemade BP wax. It is an easy step, really. Throw a tray with 100 bullets into the oven to de-lube as 100 bullets are in another tray lubing. I spray my carrier in the 73 down every-other stage. But I do nothing to the revolvers except a clean at the end of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Howdy I've been shooting nothing but Black Powder in CAS for about five years now. Usually Schuetzen FFg. Chancy Shot is correct about the mechanism of fouling on a revolver. +1 on the Big Lube bullets, that's all I shoot. I cast my own and lube them with SPG. When I was pan lubing I had to swab out my rifle barrel about twice during the match because regular commercial bullets don't carry enough lube to keep the fouling soft for the entire length of a rifle barrel. It would usually cake up with hard fouling about six inches back from the muzzle and accuracy would begin to suffer. No more, I can go an entire eight stage match with no cleaning at all. As a matter of fact, for a two day match I usually don't clean them at all after the first day. I just start out dirty and they keep rolling. +1 on 44-40 for rifle, that's all I shoot. I shoot 45 Colt or 45 Schofield in my revolvers because clean chambers are not as critical in a revolver. And you don't have to drag your empties jug around all day, I never do. The end of the match back at the car is plenty of time. I bring a jug of water with a couple of squirts of dishsoap in it. I dump my empties in the jug at the end of the day. The jug sits on the floor of the car on the drive home and the vibration of the car is plenty to keep the fouling in suspension. Waiting until the end of the match is not enough time for verdigris to form on brass. Waiting until the next day is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Dick Dastardly has given you some quality information on shooting a match with black powder. A couple of things that I might ad; I shoot 45 LC and 12 ga and load the same way, lots of lube, but I also include my shotgun rounds as well. I have a lube ribbon maker that with the brass case mouth I form a lube cookie that I place just over the over powder wad. This has helped to keep the shotgun fowling down to a low minimum. My pistols (Ruger Bisley Vaquero's) can go for at least 8 or 9 stages without gumming up too bad so I'm in good shape there. I do take extra back up pistols with me to the match just in case of fowling though. Something to think about and an excuse to buy more guns. And lastly, I use Pyrodex P and Pyrodex R/S in all my loads and it seems to work fine. I wait for any brass/gun cleaning until I get home from the match as there is no need for any sooner. Smithy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Silly me, I was just thinkin', "one shot at a time, as rapidly as possible!" But, you had to go and change the question... I mostly shoot Frontiersman, but use a .45Colt rifle; I use 'bout a ¾ full case, drop a 225gr boolit on top and have fun. I also use a waxed card wad under the bullet, sorta as a gas check, since I'll use the same loads for long range pistol caliber long range, it just seems to help control accuracy by keeping the base of the bullet from deforming as much. Whether it actually helps in all guns... I just don't know... but it makes a clear improvement on 50 yard groups outta my ol '73, so I'll stick with it. I can usually shoot 5, maybe 6 stages without fussin' with the '73, but the Henry requires more attention, as it's carrier is tighter in the mortise and won't function with very much fouling. I really need to test some other loads, as a bit more powder might bump up the cases to seal the chamber better in the Henry, reducing the fouling that gets on the carrier. As for the number of stages or rounds one can shoot before cleaning becomes critical, I believe it's more gun specific than any "rule of thumb" will provide. With the toggle links it's all about carrier clearance. In '92 or 1894 Marlins it ain't so critical, but the Marlin's easier to take the bolt out and get to the guts to clean up after the match. It also seems to me that if you're using lightened springs and such, fouling might also affect those guns faster than if your springs are a little heavier... that ain't do to any scientific research... but makes a certain amount of "seat of the pants" sense. With yer six-guns it's mostly about that cylinder gap. The other factor is the quality of the powder and lube you use. Stick to mineral based lubes and you'll be ok, using a petroleum based lube will make a sticky mess that's harder to clean. Can't say I've ever used Elephant, but I tend to like Goex Cartridge and Swiss for use in my cartridges, Just about any ol' thing'll work for the shotgun. One thing to note on the SGs, if you use a plastic wad, (and they work just fine), is that you'll have melted "ribbons" of plastic in with the fouling, It doesn't really affect anything, just that it's a little messier to clean up. Also, plastic hulls with get brittle faster, and if you don't use fairly stout loads, the fouling will get in the chamber and eventually keep yer hulls from "falling out". Polishing the chambers will help tremendously, Unless the stage writer goes a little overboard with the number of SG rounds, I can nearly always finish a two day match before my SG develops any issues. Them're my thoughts on the subject, YMMV. Now, when you stop "dabbling" with BP, get serious about shootin' BP, you'll dump the suppository six-guns and shoot cap n' balls, you'll really experience what shootin' BP is all about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Rose, SASS #45478 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 If you want to use standard lube bullets then use 777, Pyrodex or APP. The powder costs more but then big lube bullets cost more. Like the man says, you can pay me now or you can pay me later. I use 777 in my pistol and rifle and Pyrodex in my shotgun. 6 stages is not a problem. Clean up is with moosemilk. I have never tried to shoot more stages or left my guns overnight. I use plastic wads in my shotgun. P.S. I don't think black powder is "holy" and I also don't think I am "kissing my sister." Load what is convenient for you and have fun making smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 +1 on Jackson Rose's comments. You can use regular lubed bullets with 777 without any fouling problems. Cylinder binding can be alleviated by lubing the base pin with a thick grease like white lithium or the Mobil synthetic. Regular oil just allows for capillary action and a route for the fouling to creep in and gum things up. If using 777, plastic wad snot and fouling in shotguns cleans right out if you pre-treat the bores with WD-40. I've gone 12 stages without cleaning and had no problems by taking the above mentioned actions shooting Rugers, a '73, and an old Boito SxS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peddler Parsons SASS # 31281 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I use APP for my 45 pistols and rifle 200/250 both regular lube, have shot a regular 6 stage match then 3 hours later a 6 stage night match with no trouble, for the sxs I use true black powder or what ever I happen to have for it. At the end of the shot I just spray the barrels down, put the brass in a jug of mix. When I get home I just have to run a patch or two down the barrels and they are clean, then spray with Ballistol and put away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thank ya all! Y'all gave me the answers I was looking fer! As soon as I get a SxS SG I'll be shootin BP! Spades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Loving Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Howdy Spades, If you'll load and shoot Big Lube®LLC bullets you'll have no need to clean to maintain accuracy or function. These bullets haul so much lube that the fouling stays soft and blows out with the next shot. Yer second shot and yer last shot all encounter the same amount of fouling. Load your bullets snug to the black powder compressing it about 1/16" to 1/8" and you'll have the right load. I'm talkin' Genuine Powder here, the One True Powder, Holy Black. Not some sub/replica kiss yer sister stuff. For yer scatterguns you'll find loading BP very easy. Use roughly equal VOLUMES, not weights, of fineshot and powder and build your wad column with Circle Fly wads to leave the right room for a nice crimp. I prefer a roll crimp. Primers are of little concern because black powder is so easy to ignite that most any will do. No need for "Magnum" unless the price is lower. When the match is over, a spritz of Moosemilk (1 part Ballistol : 10 parts water) down the bore and a pull of the boresnake and yer good to go. I've won many a six pack of my favorite malt beverage by demonstrating how I can clean my pistols, rifle and shotgun all sparkling clean inside fifteen minutes. I've yet to buy any on that bet and my guns are cleaner, with no rust, than most that shoot heathen fad smokeyless powder. Hope this helps. DD-DLoS I've been using big lube bullets in both smokeless and BP catagories. I mostly shoot Frontiersman using an EPP-UG big lube bullet vs a round ball. Got all of my equipment from DD including the molds for both rounds. I don't clean until after the match with the exception of my C&B revolvers. All I do is wipe down the base pin and swap out the cyclinder for a fresh one. I do swab out my SxS throat so the hull falls out easily but then I do that no matter whether shooting BP or Smokeless. An by BP I mean real Holy Black. I don't shoot subs. Hope you enjoy the dark side. It's a hoot. Good luck. Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowhand Bob, 24229 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Why I like APP, let me count the ways. I use APP for all of my pistol caliber cartridges and Goex FF/FFF for everything else. For main match cartridge loading it is hard to beat a good sub due to its self lubing qualities. After a couple of years of messing with melting out the old lube and then pan lubing the bullets with a bp lube I crossed over to Clean Shot, the old daddy to APP. My first experience was actually in an attempt to find a round that would make smoke in my Schofields without binding them down and it worked. The change made many things easier as I learned the advantages. Smokeless lubed bullets work good and unlubed work even better with APP and this also makes using standard cartridge reloading techniques much more practical in your auto press. I figure the higher cost of using the sub gets negated by not needing the expensive 'special' bullets and lubes required by real bp. I do reserve the large dose reloading requirements of shot shell and long range (45-70) for real bp. I have always used real bp for cap and ball use also but have tried the subs here also and found them to work fine for SASS shooting but they hold no advantage and are a bit more expensive so I just say no! Shotguns have been my Achilles weakness over the years, with only two shotguns being dependable over any length of time. My original Stoeger coach gun performed well, though rough early on, for over ten years and my Coyote Cap hammered double has done well for several years of light use. In my SASS shotgun experience, if it works rough as a cob, do not send it off as it will likely not work at all again! If it doesnt work when you get it, well you only have money to lose. True professional shotgun prepping for SASS seems to be an art form that has not progressed as well as has rifle and pistol tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahomabound Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I shoot .45 Colt bullets in OMRugers and Marlin lever gun using Schuetzen Ffg. The bullets are either big lube bullets or regular bullets with SPG lube. With the regular bullets, I use a lubed wad under the bullet, and still compress the powder an 1/8" or a bit less. With the shotgun, I use red plastic wad (12 gauge). The powder is 60 grains by volume. Lastly, use a Black Powder, powder drop/measure instead of the one that you use for heathen smokeless powders; it's safer (no chance for a spark). And get some brass volume powder measures (one for pistol/rifle bullets and one for the shot shells). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Well needless to say, I'm a fan of the Big Lube Bullets. With real Black Powder use a soft lube, with 777 use a harder (smokeless type) lube. I'm NOT a fan of Ballistol,though many folks like it. I use my own mixture that contains Antifreeze, Oil Soap, Water, Alcohol, and have been happy with it. The glycol in the Antifreeze does a good job of lube and coating things, the Oil Soap helps to cut debri, the Water is a carrier, and the Alcohol helps to evaperate out the Water. (My story and I'm sticking to it!). Fact is, in the BP world of shooting its seems that everyone has their favorite idea what works best.... but I've not found ANYONE that is serious about shooting BP that argues with the "Plenty of Bullet Lube" idea. It's been proven since the very beginnings or BP firearms. There is also not agreement as to whether or not to use petroleum products with BP firearms. I know some very successful BP shooters who use such products. Reguardless of what you use, it only takes a quick squirt and wipe of the front of the cylinder to keep your revolvers going, in most cases. I also open up the barrel gap to around .007. Good luck, and welcome to the "Dark Side" Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I hear the soft lube with more lube grooves comments. I understand the principle. I am one of those who uses modern axle grease over the ball and bullets in my revolvers. I can shoot at least 17 stages with out cleaning. Just wipe the outside off so I can still hold on. (17 stages. Yes. maybe more. That's all the stages that match had.) Yes over the bullets in cartridge guns. The bullets I use do not have large lube grooves. Anyway, here is what I would like to find. I would like to find the formula used by Springfield in their 45-70 Government rounds in the 1870 or so. I have disassembled a couple of known rounds and found the lube not to be soft at all. It is hard and brittle. This may be a condition of time. How ever the lube I found seems to be saturated with what looks like graphite. The lube is very dark gray in color. Warmed between the fingers the lube can be spread out leaving a shiny mark much like pencil lead. Records show that Springfield rifles could be shot hundreds of rounds with out being swabbed. This interests me enough to find out what they used as lube in 1870s. I'd like to run test using their formula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyandot Jim Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Well Pards, I shoot both ROAs and Vaqueros in 32 and 45 Colt. I use Goex 3F in my pistols and Triple 7 in the rifle. I use both balls and SMOKELESS lubed bullets in all my pistols. I DO NOT use grease on the front of the cylinder. All I do is wipe off the face of the cylinder every couple of stages and put some Ballistol on the cylinder base pin. Sometimes if I remember I will squirt some Ballistol down the barrel I think that is where some of the binding comes from. If you compare a ROA and Vaquero you will see that they are different. The ROA is cut down in the middle so only about a 1/8" on each end of the cylinder rides on the base pin. My guns will run for 10 stages without cleaning any more than that. At one match my pard and I both shot the 32s with smokeless bullets and Goex 3F. That was a total of 20 10 round stages. All I did was as mentioned above. When the cylinder does bind on the 45s, which is not often and never on the ROAs or 32s, I put the Ballisitol on the base pin. When I do clean them Windex down the barrel and cylinders takes all the crud out. Then I run patches with Balistol in them. No lead or grunge left in them. Also during the match ya stay a lot cleaner. My hands don't even get very dirty. The Barrel to Cylinder gap on the Vaquero 45s and 32s are .004.006 and the ROAs are .008. If you are using a petroleum base oil the gun will bind real fast Hope this helps. In my opinion we don't need a whole lot of accuracy at the ranges we shoot. Even a dirty barrel will still be good enough. Jim. PS In the last few months I have won first in MO. State Match and first in Southwest regional BP Match and 2nd in LA State Match due to a 10 round jam in the rifle. So this WAY works for me. Some of the stuff the shooters have won. http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/wyandotjim/1284318239.jpg http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/wyandotjim/Rugers/blacksht4-1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 at night really rocks-man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Spades, Plenty of good advice has been given following your initial post. Someone mentioned that cleaning is more on each individuals revolvers, I would place emphasis on that comment. You will know right off when you begen feeling resistance in cylinder rotation. If shooting duelist you will more than likely feel it sooner than the two hander. I can generally feel resistance in my very tight FAs if I try to run them on the third stage so I clean somewhat at least every two stages. This is a simple cleaning with Windex WITH VINEGAR. I drop cylinder out spraying and wiping it then wipe inside frame clean, maybe a patch or two thru barrel with the soution on it. I then apply a good oil in important places (latch, both ends of cylinder, cyl pen, throat end of barrel, etc). Brand of oil does not really concern me, whatever is convenient at time-Triflo, 3/1, ProShot, Ballistol, etc. I often use a little grease like ProShot's and use quite a bit of Ballistol for all different things. I will probably do a little wiping with above W/V soln on ez to get to areas of 73 with a patch or two down barrel every few stages to make easier to clean later. Shotgun is not cleaned until after match and I start with it by shooting plenty of the WV soln down barrels and let sit while I clean on other guns. Shotgun cleans easy after setting with another soaked patch bringing out all the plastic material mentioned. I must remember then to run dry patch down barrels and for sure an oily one because my barrels have been open bored so lack any chrone lining for protection. Different from most posting here, I clean guns as soon after a match as I can. I use Cowboy Goex and residue will most definetely rust lots of parts, especailly those that have no bluing on them, in time so why give it time on equipment that is costly. Could I wait a day or so to clean, probably, but why put it off. Remember that resistance is not necessarily just at barrel gap. In my revolvers the area between hub and frame (where pen comes thru) is very tight so residue builts up there quickly perhaps faster than at barrel/cylinder gap. I have had revolvers that would not take a cylinder full of loads before resistance was felt....there is a fairly easy fix to help this, but that is another story. don't forget to carry some soapy solution to drop cases in to make cleaning them easier later. I use windshield wash fluid and sometimes even dilute that. I later rinse, let dry, then polish. Before or after loading check for any cracks in brass, if bad DON'T shoot in rifle because they might cause a jam. OIL IS YOUR FRIEND, WATER IS YOUR ENEMY on most surfaces. If storing guns for any length of time I will probably shoot some spray oil well inside but rarely completely disassemble them for internal cleaning (maybe once or twice a year). PM me if you have questions. Enjoy the dark side,. bb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Morgan, SASS 41265 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Hi all, I've just been shooting CAS in 49er class for just one year. No one is shooting black powder. So...........I loaded up some 45Colt with black powder last weekend and went to the range to test them out. I only had 180gr bullets layin around so that's what I used. I used Elephant BP and loaded them up. It was a kick (not literally), but I'm convinced now I will shoot it at matches as soon as I get a side by side SG. I've read most all the posts here on what folks recommend and I'm pretty much on information overload. Would any of you CAS shooters, that shoot BP, tell me your typical scenario for shooting a BP match? Let's say a 6 stage match. How many stages can you shoot before having to do some cleaning. What do you use to clean with between stages; revolvers & rifle? And, do you all immediately put spent cartridges in some kind of cleaning solution you carry with you? My Uberti revolver cylinder was getting sticky after 10 rounds. I know there's a lot of information pertaining to this, so if you'd like to keep it off the site that's ok, you can email me here =>Email me Thank you for your input and help Spades McDuff Arizona Sent ya a pm regarding the easy way to load bp. p.s. i put a wonder wad under the 250gr boolit in the 30" 73 and the rifle's bore stays clean. max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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