Proposed Rule Changes

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

And the Overall Top Shooter at the 2024 EOT, who also gets a new pickup truck with bass boat and trailer, is the shooter who had the shortest stroke on their lever action rifle!

[Eyesa Horg]

18 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The distance doesn't change if the fingers don't move during the stroke of the lever.

 

So....?????

 

Phantom

What Griff said.

 

I likely won't do it, but it would help me for sure since my rotator cuff failure. I can just get my arm out far enough to lever my Marlin. On rare occasions, my fingers have fallen out of the lever cuz I can't actually hold my arm up there. I have to rely on my fingers resting against the end of the loop.

[Griff]

Just like the relaxation of hammer spur profiles... justify it by saying it's for those with small hands and those with arthritis, and ignore the fact that is simply an artrifice to circumvent the rules as written.  Fool yourself into thinking that only those with small hands or have arthritis will make such modifications... Sure, you betcha...   Be honest, how many of y'all were thinkin', "I need to do this."  Nearly every rule prohibiting something, is there because of the mindset some people have that rules are made to be broken.  The "you own the stage after the first shot downrange" was due to one individual that could and routinely did purposely induce a hiccup if he felt a stage wasn't going great... to the point that he'd do it if he didn't feel he was besting the fastest time on a stage.   The limit on the reduction a lever stroke can be made is because folks were continually trying to reduce that stroke... as is the prohibition against the "spacer block" inside the lever.  The rule prohibiting multiple projectiles in rifle or handgun rounds came about because there were folks that did these things.  These rules didn't happen in a vacuum.  They happened because some folks have no shame, a poor sense of sportsmanship, or think they'll not be caught and they'll have a competitive advantage...  But, hey, who cares, there ain't a monetary prize involved... 

 

But, that's okay, make light of the old guy that's seen much of this develop, & points out that the Emperor's new suit is rather transparent.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

If at rest the outside of the lever loop is an inch & a half from the wrist of the rifle and you place a half inch of padding inside that outer portion of the loop, you've effectively removed a half inch of movement your fingers need to move the lever.  Although the amount of lever movement is not reduced, the movement your fingers need to move the lever that amount is... 

Why are you neglecting to acknowledge that the effect of the amount of excess space within the r lever dictates the distance of the throw.

 

Perhaps you need to draw a little diagram to understand what's going on here. 

 

Gotta love the Wire...

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

What Griff said.

 

I likely won't do it, but it would help me for sure since my rotator cuff failure. I can just get my arm out far enough to lever my Marlin. On rare occasions, my fingers have fallen out of the lever cuz I can't actually hold my arm up there. I have to rely on my fingers resting against the end of the loop.

You may like what the intent of his post is trying to say, but your understanding of what's going on seems to be lacking.

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

But, that's okay, make light of the old guy that's seen much of this develop, & points out that the Emperor's new suit is rather transparent.

Or maybe you didn't understand exactly what the reasons were for the changes when they were implemented.

 

Just because you were there doesn't mean you knew what was truly going on.

 

Phantom

[Griff]

Or maybe it's your understanding is a little short.   

11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Why are you neglecting to acknowledge that the effect of the amount of excess space within the r lever dictates the distance of the throw.

 

Perhaps you need to draw a little diagram to understand what's going on here. 

 

Gotta love the Wire...

 

Phantom

Seriously?  I don't believe it should be as difficult to visualize as you're making it seem.   Conversely, why are you refusing to acknowledge that by reducing the amount of space inside the lever reduces the distance of the throw?

6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Or maybe you didn't understand exactly what the reasons were for the changes when they were implemented.

 

Just because you were there doesn't mean you knew what was truly going on.

 

Phantom

Apparently simply relaying events doesn't fit your narrative.  But... when event A precedes event B after a fair amount of discussion with the principals involved leaves me with no misunderstanding.  But, you can continue to question everything. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

9 minutes ago, Griff said:

Seriously?  I don't believe it should be as difficult to visualize as you're making it seem.   Conversely, why are you refusing to acknowledge that by reducing the amount of space inside the lever reduces the distance of the throw

If the hand is kept in the same relative (to the lever), position from the beginning of the stroke to the end of the stroke, the distance traveled is the same regardless of where the hand is located within the lever.

9 minutes ago, Griff said:

Apparently simply relaying events doesn't fit your narrative.  But... when event A precedes event B after a fair amount of discussion with the principals involved leaves me with no misunderstanding.  But, you can continue to question everything

You're not simply relaying events. You're relaying events based on your perspective. 

 

Perhaps you consider yourself a true historian?

 

And stop with the constant attacks on my motivations. They don't help your arguments as much as you'd like them to.

 

Phantom

[Griff]

I'll try again.  Even with my poor drawing skills I believe this represents what I'm been trying to explain:

If the orange space represents an installed pad, the distance between the lever at rest to the lever extended is the same, but... the distance to the inside of the pad is less by the thickness of the pad, effectively reducing the stroke needed.

15 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You're not simply relaying events. You're relaying events based on your perspective. 

 

Perhaps you consider yourself a true historian?

 

And stop with the constant attacks on my motivations. They don't help your arguments as much as you'd like them to.

 

Phantom

That's all any of us can do...   If I witnessed an event, that perspective is likely better than a 3rd or 4th hand retelling.  I don't doubt that other eye witnesses to the same event might remember it differently.   I'd welcome that discussion.  

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 minutes ago, Griff said:

If the orange space represents an installed pad, the distance between the lever at rest to the lever extended is the same, but... the distance to the inside of the pad is less by the thickness of the pad, effectively reducing the stroke needed

Because your hand is not moving within the lever. 

 

Thick fingered hands will travel less distance than thin fingered hands because of the slop between fingers and lever.

 

Phantom

PS: Appreciate the post without a swipe at my motives.

 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

As I stated above, I won't be adding a "block" to my lever. Even though it might help me a tad due to my inability to hold my arm up there. I don't honestly care for the look! Shortening the stock would accomplish the same thing and I don't want to do that either. Replacement JM Marlin stocks will be getting rare and mine has some Klassic Laser Works embellishments that I like.. Just stating that I vote yes for the rule change for those whom need it and that the amount the "block" shortens the stroke is negligible, but may help some folks with small hands or a handicap, some have done it anyway. I don't see it as a gamer advantage. Those folks probably already have a true short stroke mod. In my case, I'd also worry that my hand could get stuck in the lever when discarding the rifle and that could be bad!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

19 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

As I stated above, I won't be adding a "block" to my lever. Even though it might help me a tad due to my inability to hold my arm up there. I don't honestly care for the look! Shortening the stock would accomplish the same thing and I don't want to do that either. Replacement JM Marlin stocks will be getting rare and mine has some Klassic Laser Works embellishments that I like.. Just stating that I vote yes for the rule change for those whom need it and that the amount the "block" shortens the stroke is negligible, but may help some folks with small hands or a handicap, some have done it anyway. I don't see it as a gamer advantage. Those folks probably already have a true short stroke mod. In my case, I'd also worry that my hand could get stuck in the lever when discarding the rifle and that could be bad!

Ugh...

 

It does not shorten the stroke anymore than someone who's fingers don't really move inside the lever without any material added.

 

Phantom

[Eyesa Horg]

21 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Ugh...

 

It does not shorten the stroke anymore than someone who's fingers don't really move inside the lever without any material added.

 

Phantom

It would for someone like me! Since I have difficulty extending my arm when the rifle is shouldered. As in Griff's drawing, let's say the block is 1/2", that would be a half inch less my arm would need to extend. Not sure how this discussion got here! My first reply was supporting your statement about some folks having small hands. I was agreeing and adding handicaps as well. For me I'll live with as I have for years now! My arm is also the reason I need to do a partial thumb wrap when levering as I can't put upward pressure on the lever to keep it closed against the trigger safety.

 

As you stated, it doesn't shorten the actual stroke, but does shorten how far your arm has to extend.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Three things.

 

1. The older I get the less I care about winning debates on forums.

 

2. It’s rare to change someone’s mind on forums.

 

3. It took me way longer than it should have, but I’ve reached a point where I walk away (usually) rather than lose friends over stuff.

 

I hope pards are at the range slinging lead right now. I wish I was.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

It would for someone like me! Since I have difficulty extending my arm when the rifle is shouldered. As in Griff's drawing, let's say the block is 1/2", that would be a half inch less my arm would need to extend. Not sure how this discussion got here! My first reply was supporting your statement about some folks having small hands. I was agreeing and adding handicaps as well. For me I'll live with as I have for years now! My arm is also the reason I need to do a partial thumb wrap when levering as I can't put upward pressure on the lever to keep it closed against the trigger safety.

 

As you stated, it doesn't shorten the actual stroke, but does shorten how far your arm has to extend.

You'll notice that my argument centered around the stroke length... As did Griff's I believe.

 

Phantom

[Mister Badly]

18 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

What Griff said.

 

I likely won't do it, but it would help me for sure since my rotator cuff failure. I can just get my arm out far enough to lever my Marlin. On rare occasions, my fingers have fallen out of the lever cuz I can't actually hold my arm up there. I have to rely on my fingers resting against the end of the loop.

Just shoot the long guns from the hip

[Griff]

58 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I hope pards are at the range slinging lead right now. I wish I was.

I got up to go... and truck wouldn't start... Been an intermittent problem, but... this am engine threw a code... I sure prefer my old non-computerized car... 

19 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You'll notice that my argument centered around the stroke length... As did Griff's I believe.

I tried to differentiate effective stroke length vs. actual stroke length.

[Captain Bill Burt]

8 minutes ago, Griff said:

I got up to go... and truck wouldn't start... Been an intermittent problem, but... this am engine threw a code... I sure prefer my old non-computerized car... 

I tried to differentiate effective stroke length vs. actual stroke length.

I just got out of the hospital this morning (flu and pneumonia) so I missed this weekend. I’ll be ready Saturday. Next time you’re here I hope you’ll stop by.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

9 minutes ago, Griff said:

tried to differentiate effective stroke length vs. actual stroke length.

Really??

 

Redirect me to that post.

 

Phantom

[Griff]

7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Really??

 

Redirect me to that post.

 

Phantom

I think my picture demonstrated that... 

[McCandless]

About the only argument against some of the built-up "blocks" or spacers is "they don't look cowboy".   But, I wasn't around back then, and I don't know what some 19th century person may or may not have done.  

 

To my eye, this just doesn't "look" right.   But, outlawing a bit of foam under a leather lever wrap doesn't sound right either.

 

(photo courtesy of Jokers Wild)... no it's not his rifle either.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

The things that folks think don't look cowboy are more than likely basing their beliefs on what they saw in the movies/TV.

 

Want to know what kinda things actually were done back in the day? Open up some books... Visit museums.

 

Phantom

[Mister Badly]

15 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I just got out of the hospital this morning (flu and pneumonia) so I missed this weekend. I’ll be ready Saturday. Next time you’re here I hope you’ll stop by.

Sorry to hear that Captain. 

[J. B. Corn]

I am opposed to all three.  As Pale Wolf noted, the current SDQ rule applies to rifles and shotguns.  The hazard occurs at the unloading table and between the unloading table and the firing line. The hazard is not with an empty chamber, the hazard is with a loaded chamber.  With the action closed, hammer cocked, and a loaded chamber it only takes an accidental touch of the trigger to fire the gun.  The SDQ serves as a warning and exclamation point that the shooter must bring their guns to the firing line in a safe condition. Even if the chamber is empty but the action is closed and the hammer cocked, the shooter has not done their due diligence at the loading table. The SDQ is an important safety factor; the shooter should make their guns safe, the SDQ says the shooter must make their guns safe.  As a friend of mine said, "if the shooter gets an SDQ [for whatever reason] they will remember it and not make the same mistake next time."  This is not the same as the action closed on a long gun after shooting. The TO and the spotters are counting the shots and will usually know or at least question if there is a live round left in the gun after shooting.

Regarding lever wraps: I think the rule is clear enough.  The words "drastically limit" are somewhat subjective, but if common sense is applied, the rest can be left to the match officials to make a judgment.  I think it is unlikely that a shooter will be challenged unless someone thinks they have taken an unfair advantage.

[Captain Bill Burt]

9 minutes ago, J. B. Corn said:

I am opposed to all three.  As Pale Wolf noted, the current SDQ rule applies to rifles and shotguns.  The hazard occurs at the unloading table and between the unloading table and the firing line. The hazard is not with an empty chamber, the hazard is with a loaded chamber.  With the action closed, hammer cocked, and a loaded chamber it only takes an accidental touch of the trigger to fire the gun.  The SDQ serves as a warning and exclamation point that the shooter must bring their guns to the firing line in a safe condition. Even if the chamber is empty but the action is closed and the hammer cocked, the shooter has not done their due diligence at the loading table. The SDQ is an important safety factor; the shooter should make their guns safe, the SDQ says the shooter must make their guns safe.  As a friend of mine said, "if the shooter gets an SDQ [for whatever reason] they will remember it and not make the same mistake next time."  This is not the same as the action closed on a long gun after shooting. The TO and the spotters are counting the shots and will usually know or at least question if there is a live round left in the gun after shooting.

Regarding lever wraps: I think the rule is clear enough.  The words "drastically limit" are somewhat subjective, but if common sense is applied, the rest can be left to the match officials to make a judgment.  I think it is unlikely that a shooter will be challenged unless someone thinks they have taken an unfair advantage.

I’m confused. You said the danger is at the ULT and between the ULT and the firing line, but this rule governs movement between the LT and the firing line.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the relative safety after shooting as well. 13 years in and I’ve never seen a shooter come to the line with a cocked rifle with a round in the chamber. I’ve seen plenty leave a live round in after shooting though.

[J. B. Corn]

Captain Bill Burt,

 

To me, the hazard begins when the shooter picks up their guns at the loading table and begins movement to the firing line.  That is what I meant. Where does "movement" begin, when the shooter picks up the guns, or takes the first step? It is usually not caught until the firing line anyway.

 

My point about after shooting is that the TO and spotters serve as an extra safety factor.  In addition, the TO should see that the shooter leaves the firing line with the action open on the rifle and shotgun, that is another safety factor.  Yes, I've seen people leave a live round in the rifle after shooting, but so far, only with the action open and then caught by the unloading officer.

[Bearfoot Tracker]

I don't shoot nearly as much as most of you, and don't know as much about the rules as a lot of you. My question is this change to rule #3 a rabbit hole to future changes in other rules?

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

On 12/10/2023 at 3:22 PM, McCandless said:

About the only argument against some of the built-up "blocks" or spacers is "they don't look cowboy".   But, I wasn't around back then, and I don't know what some 19th century person may or may not have done.  

 

To my eye, this just doesn't "look" right.   But, outlawing a bit of foam under a leather lever wrap doesn't sound right either.

 

(photo courtesy of Jokers Wild)... no it's not his rifle either.

Personally, I like it.  Now whether it has form, rubber, or more leather under what is visual just does not matter to me and I would not want to take the time to ask the owner to remove wrap so I could know. 

Bet owner does not get his, or her, trigger figure pinched. 

Hey, that's an idea for new rule..."no use of any material to relieve shooter from getting  figure pinched between trigger and lever." 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

4 hours ago, Bearfoot Tracker said:

I don't shoot nearly as much as most of you, and don't know as much about the rules as a lot of you. My question is this change to rule #3 a rabbit hole to future changes in other rules?

 

Why would it be?
The primary reason given for the proposed change is the removal of a virtually unenforcable subjective restriction.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 hours ago, J. B. Corn said:

The words "drastically limit" are somewhat subjective

Well by all means, let's make SASS competitions only contain "somewhat subjective" rules.

 

Too funny!!!!!

 

Phantom

[Captain Bill Burt]

17 hours ago, J. B. Corn said:

Captain Bill Burt,

 

To me, the hazard begins when the shooter picks up their guns at the loading table and begins movement to the firing line.  That is what I meant. Where does "movement" begin, when the shooter picks up the guns, or takes the first step? It is usually not caught until the firing line anyway.

 

My point about after shooting is that the TO and spotters serve as an extra safety factor.  In addition, the TO should see that the shooter leaves the firing line with the action open on the rifle and shotgun, that is another safety factor.  Yes, I've seen people leave a live round in the rifle after shooting, but so far, only with the action open and then caught by the unloading officer.

I'm certainly not trying to call you out or anything, but what you posted originally and what you said in the post I'm quoting here are not the same.  You may want to reread your original post and change ULT to LT.

 

Also, again not calling you out, but this post is also incorrect.  Once you place a gun on the LT, you are already, by definition on the firing line.  See SHB page 43 glossary of terms.  "Firing Line - from first firearm placed on the LT until all guns are confirmed as cleared at the ULT." 

[J. B. Corn]

4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm certainly not trying to call you out or anything, but what you posted originally and what you said in the post I'm quoting here are not the same.  You may want to reread your original post and change ULT to LT.

 

Also, again not calling you out, but this post is also incorrect.  Once you place a gun on the LT, you are already, by definition on the firing line.  See SHB page 43 glossary of terms.  "Firing Line - from first firearm placed on the LT until all guns are confirmed as cleared at the ULT." 

You are correct.  For some reason I wrote unloading table instead of loading table.  I meant to write loading table.  My original mistake and missing your original point was worth calling out.

 

To me, informally, the firing line is the area between the loading table and the unloading table where firing normally occurs, but you are correct with the formal definition.  I stand corrected.   I meant from the loading table to the location(s) where the long guns are staged.

 

Despite my mistakes in wording my comments, I still think it is a good rule as it stands.  I have mostly seen new shooters get zapped with the SDQ although sometimes veterans get zapped as well.  I have seen shooters come to the line with hammer cocked or the chamber loaded on the rifle, but don't think I have seen both at the same time.  In my early days of shooting I was stung by each of those mistakes separately, but haven't done them again.  Another way to look at this is that maybe this is a rare event because the current rule works.

 

I look at this rule as prevention, if you make either mistake you get an SDQ, so you pay more attention at the loading table.  If you look at it as punishment then it might make sense not to punish a shooter if the chamber is empty.  I prefer keeping the existing rule as prevention.

[Eyesa Horg]

I've never seen anyone come to the line with a round chambered in the rifle. Seems that would be pretty intentional due to needing to rack the lever. Seems someone else at the table would catch that if not yourself. On occasion, I've presumed a pistol was not down on the empty chamber. When the very first trigger pull goes click!

[J. B. Corn]

16 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well by all means, let's make SASS competitions only contain "somewhat subjective" rules.

 

Too funny!!!!!

 

Phantom

My point is that I think the intent of the rule is clear, wrapping the lever to prevent chafing your fingers against bare metal is OK, stuffing the loop to minimize finger movement in the loop is not.  I think this is consistent with the philosophy of no external modifications to the gun.   I trust match officials to make a common sense decision based on the existing rule.  However, the rule could easily be made objective and measurable by specifying the allowed thickness of the lever wrap on the inside of the loop.  For example, "the thickness of the lever wrap on the inside of the loop shall not exceed 3/8" inch."  (Pick your own value for what you think the allowed thickness could be.)  If the thickness is specified, we don't care if it is thin leather over a soft pad or a couple of layers of thin leather, or a piece of thick leather, etc.  It is either too thick or not.  If we want to go to an extreme we could add "assuming a measurement resolution and accuracy of plus or minus 1/16 inch." 

 

I like the original rule and what I think was the original intent. But if it is too subjective then I think we should change it to be more objective, not eliminate it entirely.

[J. B. Corn]

20 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I've never seen anyone come to the line with a round chambered in the rifle. Seems that would be pretty intentional due to needing to rack the lever. Seems someone else at the table would catch that if not yourself. On occasion, I've presumed a pistol was not down on the empty chamber. When the very first trigger pull goes click!

I have done it and seen others do it when they come to the scenario and eject a round the first time they rack the rifle.  I did it a long time ago.  I don't recall the exact circumstances, but for example, I may have loaded 10 rounds when I should have loaded nine, then jacked one round at the loading table (which chambered the next round) instead of completely unloading the rifle and starting over.  I don't know all the ways it can be done, but I have done it (only once) and seen it done.