MSV or P?

[Hoss]

The term “minor safety violation” has never been my favorite. Kinda like being a “little pregnant”. Either you are or you’re not safe/pregnant! 
looking at the rules, the MSVs are really more like or could be considered Ps. 
 

there is nothing unsafe about a fired hull left in shotgun. Make it a P. 
 

if it’s safe to put a long gun down with round on carrier or magazine, but fixable before next round fired or gun placed at loading table, how does it become unsafe after we fire another gun? same for empty in chamber of long gun with action closed. Make it a P

(SDQ penalty for live round in chamber remains) 

 

An unfired round in pistol is just a 5 second “unfired round” (miss) a round in magazine of long gun is a 10 second MSV.  make them both Ps or both just a miss. 

if a empty long gun that slips and falls  but doesn’t sweep anyone/break 170  just a MSV, why aren’t all empty guns that hit the ground and don’t sweep anyone/break 170 a MSV? Maybe these should be procedural errors? 

How many MSVs have you seen for a revolver cocked before 45 degrees?

 

Coupled with this would probably be multiple P calls on a stage. Maybe 1 per gun? 
 

Just food for thought.  I might be missing something. 
 

 

 

 

[Griff]

Hoss... the way I've had it explained to me is... a "Procedural" ain't nuttin' but a brain phart.  Usually caused by the timer going "BEEP!"   A Minor Safety Violation is generally a action that could be one or two steps away from a major safety violation.  No, it may not seem like the difference between a loaded round left in a chamber of a handgun or on the carrier or magazine of a long gun is a difference... but the loaded round on the carrier of the discarded long gun is only two steps from being fired... closing the action and pulling the trigger.  And whereas the holstered revolver is similar, it's two steps for an unsafe act requires a 3rd step.  Hence the caveat in the rule book is that a holstered revolver is a "safe" revolver... (as long as the hammer is down on an empty chamber or fired case).  So even if a loaded round were in the revolver, it takes 3 steps for an unsafe act to follow... draw, cock & pull the trigger.  Now, as the second instance, that of an empty case in the chamber of a discarded long gun.   It is technically a failure to follow the rules, i.e. the requirement that long guns be discarded open & empty.  A cartridge in the chamber of a discarded long gun could be presumed inert... however, visually, there isn't a way to know.  And you know what presumption means... Murphy was an optimist.  Ergo, the opposite must be presumed.  That it is not inert... and those two steps away from an unsafe act.  Therefore a MSV.

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Hoss... the way I've had it explained to me is... a "Procedural" ain't nuttin' but a brain phart.  Usually caused by the timer going "BEEP!"   A Minor Safety Violation is generally an action that could be one or two steps away from a major safety violation.  No, it may not seem like the difference between a loaded round left in a chamber of a handgun or on the carrier or magazine of a long gun is a difference... but the loaded round on the carrier of the discarded long gun is only two steps from being fired... closing the action and pulling the trigger.  And whereas the holstered revolver is similar, it's two steps for an unsafe act requires a 3rd step.  Hence the caveat in the rule book is that a holstered revolver is a "safe" revolver... (as long as the hammer is down on an empty chamber or fired case).  So even if a loaded round were in the revolver, it takes 3 steps for an unsafe act to follow... draw, cock & pull the trigger.  Now, as the second instance, that of an empty case in the chamber of a discarded long gun.   It is technically a failure to follow the rules, i.e. the requirement that long guns be discarded open & empty.  A cartridge in the chamber of a discarded long gun could be presumed inert... however, visually, there isn't a way to know.  And you know what presumption means... Murphy was an optimist.  Ergo, the opposite must be presumed.  That it is not inert... and those two steps away from an unsafe act.  Therefore a MSV.

 Understand that Griff. And as we all know, every gun is loaded unless we PERSONALLY KNOW it’s not. So walking from LT to line with a cocked gun is ok. But as soon as you set it down it suddenly becomes dangerous. But I reckon that’s an argument for another day! 

[Griff]

3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

 Understand that Griff. And as we all know, every gun is loaded unless we PERSONALLY KNOW it’s not. So walking from LT to line with a cocked gun is ok. But as soon as you set it down it suddenly becomes dangerous. But I reckon that’s an argument for another day! 

Yep, some of the recent changes defy logic... especially when there's no "how to carry" instruction.  IMO, if you're carrying the long gun by the action and your finger anywhere near the trigger the cocked rifle is the SDQ.  Whether or not it just goes "click" when you reach the position on the stage it's to be checked.  I'm sure the good folks that okayed that change didn't intend for it to become the basis for questioning other "safe" practices.  But, every change in the rules has consequences, intended and not!

[Barry Sloe]

Hoss,

Here's another discrepancy: unfired round in a long gun is both a MSV and a miss; but for a revolver it is just a miss.

Griff - if the MSV is there because it is close to being a safety issue, how can a live round in a revolver not fit that description??

I'm not trying to add penalties, but I am like Hoss in that fired rounds (spent or stovepiped) do not offer any safety issue.

I'll add one last thing. Some have suggested putting suggestions in to TG's. I've had little luck with that. It's kinda like the Black Holes in space. 

 

One of my heartburn items, 

BS

[Griff]

A live

17 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Griff - if the MSV is there because it is close to being a safety issue, how can a live round in a revolver not fit that description??

I wouldn't argue that it doesn't.  But, our rules state that unless that round is under the hammer, the live round in a holstered revolver is "safe".    But, as long as it's not under the hammer, it takes four steps for it to become a unsafe incident... round fired.  Unholster, draw, cock the hammer, pull the trigger.  A bit more than with the rifle, which just requires one to close the action and pull the trigger.  

[Barry Sloe]

5 minutes ago, Griff said:

A live

 

There is a short cut. Draw the revolver and drop it at the unloading table. Potential bang.

 

Edit to add: I'm all for safety. But we have too many safety penalties that, to me, are not safety items. Those that Hoss mentioned are some.

 

BS

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

There is a short cut. Draw the revolver and drop it at the unloading table. Potential bang.

 

Edit to add: I'm all for safety. But we have too many safety penalties that, to me, are not safety items. Those that Hoss mentioned are some.

 

BS

For it to do that, the round must have been under the hammer... .ie. hammer not down on an empty chamber or expended cartridge... SDQ... or unsafe discharge/dropping a loaded firearm... MDQ... take your pick.

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I questioned the long gun penalties on this forum shortly after joining SASS in ‘08. I didn’t then, nor do I understand now, how an obviously empty case or hull in an open action is a safety issue. The most outrageous to me is an MSV for an empty hull standing straight up in a ‘97 or ‘87 - especially when it’s the last round of the string. 
 

This is the gist of the replies my query received from this forum back then:

 

”Because that’s the way it is. Sit down and shut up.” 

[Dantankerous]

 "Safety violation" combined with the word "minor" really doesn't make much sense. If something is "minor" then it is almost so unimportant that it does not matter. (Either there is a safety violation or there is not, right?  Or another way to look at it is either something is or is not unsafe.) Why not only ascribe a 1 second penalty to an MSV?

 

 

 

 

[Equanimous Phil]

On 4/20/2023 at 5:10 AM, Dantankerous said:

 "Safety violation" combined with the word "minor" really doesn't make much sense. If something is "minor" then it is almost so unimportant that it does not matter. (Either there is a safety violation or there is not, right?  Or another way to look at it is either something is or is not unsafe.)

I agree regarding the "minor". And CAS is the only shooting sport afaik that has this grading. Elsewhere, if you do something considered unsafe you get DQ'd, meaning MDQ.

 

But an action that is defined as unsafe must not lead inevitably to an unsafe situation. Pointing an empty gun at someone is technically not unsafe. Technically seen, the only thing unsafe - meaning someone can get hurt - is shooting at someone.

Good safety rules are always designed to avert danger two steps ahead.

If someone is not able to restage a SG with empty chambers it's not considered safe conduct, because that shooter thought it was empty or otherwise (s)he would have cleared it first. You always have to know the condition of your guns. 

[Barry Sloe]

11 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

You always have to know the condition of your guns. 

That's about the same as "That's the way its always been."

This is a timed speed event.  If I shoot 2 rounds out of my double SG, shuck the hulls- but one hangs up- and I move to the next gun with an open SG pointed safely downrange, explain the SAFETY part of the spent hull in an open shotgun. There is none. But there is a safety penalty. 

 

BS

 

[Noah Cash]

Or an empty rifle case that lands in the open port of a ‘97 shotgun!

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

Dang, I thought Winter was over...

[Dantankerous]

1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

That's about the same as "That's the way its always been."

This is a timed speed event.  If I shoot 2 rounds out of my double SG, shuck the hulls- but one hangs up- and I move to the next gun with an open SG pointed safely downrange, explain the SAFETY part of the spent hull in an open shotgun. There is none. But there is a safety penalty. 

 

BS

 

Perhaps some folks cannot count to 2?

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

2 hours ago, Noah Cash said:

Or an empty rifle case that lands in the open port of a ‘97 shotgun!

Yup. Seen that penalty called meself. The brouhaha over that was a sight to behold. 
 

 

[One Gun Jimmy]

2 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Yup. Seen that penalty called meself. The brouhaha over that was a sight to behold. 
 

 

This is a real thing?

What's the call on this?

 

It's so completely outside your control, not even the correct round and just a "could happen to anybody" thing...

 

No safety rule I've read really bothers me, some are overkill but better that than not sufficient,  but I would fight this call tooth and nail.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 hours ago, Noah Cash said:

Or an empty rifle case that lands in the open port of a ‘97 shotgun!

 

That is a NO CALL:

Minor Safety Violation (MSV) infractions include:
- Leaving empty or live round(s) in a magazine, action, or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded.

SHB p.22

 

[Equanimous Phil]

7 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

19 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

You always have to know the condition of your guns. 

That's about the same as "That's the way its always been."

 

No, it's not.

It's still a game with real guns and real ammunition. Knowing the condition of your gun is just basic firearm handling. That's my view and I stick to it. I am open to and second other rule changes if they're well-grounded.

 

7 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

This is a timed speed event.

That's no reason to redcuce safety standards. It's the same rules for everyone. Emptying the SG on the clock is part of the game, no advantage or disadvantage for anyone.

 

7 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

If I shoot 2 rounds out of my double SG, shuck the hulls- but one hangs up- and I move to the next gun with an open SG pointed safely downrange, explain the SAFETY part of the spent hull in an open shotgun. There is none. But there is a safety penalty. 

 

6 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

Perhaps some folks cannot count to 2?

 

1.

Hypothetically, what would happen if you change the rule so you're allowed to show after the last shot of the stage that only empty hulls are left in the SG? I suppose that some or even a lot of shooters wouldn't shuck the last hulls anymore, maybe wouldn't even open the SG. Is this desirable?

 

2.

With a SxS, if fired twice, all hammers are down on empty shells, and counting to 2 isn't in fact that hard. But what about all the situations when a single SG target is standing? I've seen shooters approach this in 4 different ways, and TO usually doesn't know how:

1. Load two (because of muscle memory, not significantly slower than load 1, and one round left if you miss with the first), shoot round one after another, and shuck empties. (Shooter doesn't want to shuck a live round on ground.)
2. Load two, shoot both at once with double trigger, and shuck empties.
3. Load two, shoot one, and shuck an empty and a live round.
4. Load one, shoot one, shuck the empty.

No.1 is easy, as most people can count to 2.

Because of the same reason why a gunfighter cannot shoot both pistols at the same time, the TO can't be sure that it were really two shots fired with approach no.2. If a shell is stuck, it could be a live round.

In approach no.3, a stuck shull can obviously be the live one.

With the TO standing somewhat behind the shooter, (s)he cannot be absolutely sure how many rounds the shooter loaded. If there's a hull stuck in the chamber it can be a live round.

 

Please note that a rifle may leave the shooter's hands with the action closed with the hammer down on a spent round, because one boom and only one chambers equals only spent shells under the hammer. But with the shotgun it's different. Do you want the rules to consider all possible situations listed above and react the TO accordingly on the clock?

When the timer is running, it's also not possible to see for a TO if it's a spent hull or a live round. And even a dent in the primer wouldn't confirm that it isn't a live round.

 

3.

Shooter dry fires an empty gun at the ULT in a safe direction, drops a pistol with only spent shells in it during CoF, or goes to the loading table with only spent shells in it (just to name some rules). We assume gun always pointed in a safe direction. Shooter gets SDQ in each case. Who of you wants to get rid of such penalties? I guess each person draws the line somewhere else.

 

4.

One could argue that the MSV penalty for a SG with a spent hull in a chamber should apply immediately after gun left shooter's hands, like the SDQ if it is a life round. Only the ones who made the rule know why, but my guess is, because the firearm is still in the shooter's and TO's attention and focus until going to the next firearm. And it's enforced to be corrected in order to catch the life round when it happens.

[Barry Sloe]

I've already stated my point.  I am not trying to take any of the safety away from the sport we participate in. 

If everyone wants to penalize someone for a spent hull in a SG or stovepiped brass in a rifle, then make the penalty a Procedural - for not following stage conventions (discarding firearms). 

 

BS

 

[Totes Magoats]

Maybe we can get the CAS ROC guys to have a beer with the WB ROC guys and talk about rules & penalties.  

 

Totes