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Case Forming... sorta


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The Kid finally gets to pick up his new rifle tomorrow (California 10-day "cooling off period"), and the dies were delivered today.  Caliber 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum.  

 

But there's one slight problem.  There is absolutely NO loaded ammunition or brass available.  None.  I called Weatherby today, and was told that we'd not likely see any until sometime next year.

 

However, .300 Weatherby Magnum brass is available. 'Tain't cheap, but it is available.  And it is identical in every dimension to the 6.5 except for the neck size.  So... the challenge.  How to just size the neck, squeezing it down about 3 1/2 calibers.  I've formed brass before, but this is different - do not want to change anything but the neck.  Probably in a couple of steps, I'd think.  

 

But how?

 

I would think that collet-type dies would probably work well, but I have to confess - I've never used them.  Actually, never even seen one "in the flesh."  Can these things be used to size only a neck?  Are they case specific?  Or will any case fit into the body of the die, to allow sizing the neck only?  :huh:

 

'Tis a puzzlement.  :mellow:

 

 

 

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First step is to full length size in a .300 Weatherby die.  This is much more important than it sounds.

Next step is to neck size to 7mm.  you can use a 7mm Remington Magnum die if you are careful.  You might be able to skip this step, but as you know, brass is scarce.

Next full length size in the 6.5-300 Weatherby die.  

Use a GOOD case lube, such as Imperial Sizing Wax and check neck thickness after you finish.

 

Good Luck

Duffield

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Necking it down 40 thou?  What will that do to wall thickness at the neck?  Also, what is the .182 radius on the .300 supposed to be on the 6.5?  

 

This is something I don't like about Weatherby - the raft of proprietary rounds they have.  

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After sizing you may need to reduce the thickness of the neck,either by turning the outside or reaming the inside.

I form .257 Roberts from 30-06,and I prefer reaming the necks over turning them.

Of course,YMMV.

Choctaw

Edited by Choctaw Jack
Darn you,Otto!!
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I learned about them the hard but cheap way, trying to size 308 down to .260 rem.  Basically neck area will be too fat which is thickness/reaming comment related.  You can get bullet to seat but the round won’t chamber.  To this day the only rounds I have ever used a bullet puller on and had to scrap. 

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The neck donut forms when brass flows (for any number of reasons) from the shoulder into the neck at the junction.  That is why when neck turning brass for precision reloading you always turn a few thousands into the neck. Sizing down brass as you are discussing requires inside neck reaming. Custom reamers for this purpose are available from Wilson. My recommendation:  Don't do it.  Pay the price for the proper brass.

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1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

What are "neck doughnuts?"

Joe,

When necking down brass you sometimes get a ring of excess brass around the base of the neck.It forms inside the case at the juncture of the neck and shoulder.Inside neck reaming usually cuts this "doughnut"away,allowing bullets tube seated properly. (Happy Jack beat me to it!)

This condition can also raise pressures considerably, if you manage to seat a bullet.

(Don't  ask me how I know).

And yes,  annealing is a very good idea.

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1 hour ago, JD Lud said:

I learned about them the hard but cheap way, trying to size 308 down to .260 rem.  Basically neck area will be too fat which is thickness/reaming comment related.  You can get bullet to seat but the round won’t chamber.  To this day the only rounds I have ever used a bullet puller on and had to scrap. 

 

59 minutes ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

The neck donut forms when brass flows (for any number of reasons) from the shoulder into the neck at the junction.  That is why when neck turning brass for precision reloading you always turn a few thousands into the neck. Sizing down brass as you are discussing requires inside neck reaming. Custom reamers for this purpose are available from Wilson. My recommendation:  Don't do it.  Pay the price for the proper brass.

 

13 minutes ago, Choctaw Jack said:

Joe,

When necking down brass you sometimes get a ring of excess brass around the base of the neck.It forms inside the case at the juncture of the neck and shoulder.Inside neck reaming usually cuts this "doughnut"away,allowing bullets tube seated properly. (Happy Jack beat me to it!)

This condition can also raise pressures considerably, if you manage to seat a bullet.

(Don't  ask me how I know).

And yes,  annealing is a very good idea.

 

Thanks for the detailed responses.   I knew that necking it down would thicken the wall (see my comment above), and that some reaming would be necessary. I didn't expect that it would create a bulge.

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Yup... we're planning to ream the necks - as well as trimming to length.  That squeezed metal has to go someplace!  

 

At this point we're looking at a multi-step collet-type sizing approach; it's going to be a mite challenging, but hey - the fun part of the game is meeting challenges and resolving them.  Sassparilla Kid has a mill and access to a lathe (his own was destroyed in a shop fire a couple of years ago), and he's prepared to modify dies if needed or even fabricate tools if he has to.  And we're considering buying an "Annealeez" annealing machine; a relative of mine has one and recommends it.

 

Now, @Happy Jack's suggestion of "paying the price and buying the proper brass" is sound.  And we would do just that, except there is NO "proper brass" to be found.  As I said earlier, I spoke with a Weatherby representative yesterday, and was advised that brass would not likely be available until some time next year... maybe not even until a year from now.  We're on the "waiting list" to purchase when it's released. 

 

Some loaded ammo might be available by the end of this year, but likely not the lead-free stuff we're required to use in this state.  And when lead-free finally does become available, it's going to be expensive.  When it was available, it cost something like $90 for a 20-round box, and I doubt it'll be any cheaper when it comes back.  

 

 

 

 

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Hardpan, since you are going ahead with the attempt to make 6.5 from 7.62 I strongly recommend you follow Sedalia Dave's recommendation and anneal the brass between every step. I anneal my match brass after every firing. With Weatherby brass it is a good idea after each firing. It work hardens quickly and often splits after only 2 firings.  With Proper annealing you can get quite a few reloads. These big high pressure rounds are NOT forgiving like a .308 or 30-06. I have reloaded 50BMG for years for competition as well as 338 Lapua and many smaller high pressure rounds. You are going into a different realm. Proceed carefully.  Make sure you have a case gauge for the round. Trying the cases in the chamber for fit is a good way to have a disaster.

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1 hour ago, Happy Jack, SASS #20451 said:

Hardpan, since you are going ahead with the attempt to make 6.5 from 7.62 I strongly recommend you follow Sedalia Dave's recommendation and anneal the brass between every step... 

 

Yup... looking at the "Annealeez."

 

So Jack, when you anneal, are you a quencher or a non-quencher?  :rolleyes:

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Also try Reed's Ammunition in Oklahoma.  He can get you ammo in almost any centerfire caliber.

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4 hours ago, JD Lud said:

Did you see my link for an auction with brass?  250 pieces.  It’s still available and a hell of a lot less work

 

Saw it, JD.  Not a bad price on a per round basis, but the total is a bit dear for the lad at this point... after a thousand $ for the rifle, about the same for a scope, plus bases and rings, he's looking for something smaller than the 250 round lot at $450 to get started with.

 

Anyway, thanks for the tip ~ I'll pass it on to him!

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14 hours ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

 

Yup... looking at the "Annealeez."

 

So Jack, when you anneal, are you a quencher or a non-quencher?  :rolleyes:

 

 

 


 I’m not Jack, but I’m a quencher. 
 Quenching brass has no effect on it’s structure. 

 I do it so that I don’t have to wait for it to cool. It also makes it less likely to become deformed when it drops out of my annealer 


Here is a video showing how to make your own for about $100.00. 
 

 

 

 The most expensive part is the enclosure. If you make your own the cost would be closer to $60.00. 
 

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Any reason you couldn't use a smaller diameter neck to begin with? ie. 257 Weatherby, 270 Weatherby instead of some much forming?

 

Bugler

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Hardpan, I do NOT put freshly annealed brass in water. I use an Annealing Made Perfect induction annealer from New Zealand.  Grafs is a dealer here in the US.  Be VERY careful when annealing brass. Overheating it once ruins it forever !!! If using a annealer unlike the AMP unit you have to use tempilaq to set it up. More brass is ruined by attempting to anneal it than any other way. You are using expensive brass and ruining a few cases trying to sett up the annealer gets expensive in a hurry.

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