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Creeker, SASS #43022

WTC - empty Hull left in shotgun.

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On 5/5/2019 at 2:06 PM, Clueless Bob said:

So, if I understand this correctly.  Shooter finishes the stage with shotgun.  Accidentally leaves a hull in said shotgun and sets it down to retrieve rifle from another shooting position.  With both firearms in hand, at the ULT, sets shotgun down to show rifle clear, that shooter THEN earns the penalty? 

Sort of crazy to me too Bob, but I have learned to live with the rule :angry:.  I have the habit of setting shotgun down first at ULT to show rifle;.  Bad habit, two or three times, with shotgun being last gun,  I have gone to ULT released the shotgun only to look and see a hull in chamber.  I remember the most recent occurrence very well....last stage at EOT last year....yea, and clean match until that point.  Seems that in the joyful moment of good stage run, clean match, etc, I just fail to look in chamber of shotgun before releasing it.  And, although I am against the hull in shotgun being penalty, it is what it is, and I do find it a bit strange that situation in OP is different.

Thanks Creeker for the thread.  I admit, I would have also made the wrong call.

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On 5/5/2019 at 12:26 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I tend to agree with you, but the flip side of the argument would be nobody shucking their hulls after they fire their last shotgun rounds.  If we had no penalty for a hull in the shotgun I would be willing to bet that pretty quick we would have the last two hulls in there fairly often.

I'd probably be guilty.:D

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If the shotgun is the last fired, when would there be another report to count on the timer? Take your time and clear your shotgun, before you pick up any other firearms....

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On 5/4/2019 at 9:04 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

No, the solution would be that a firearm discarded with a empty in it is a penalty.  Period.

 

That once it leaves your hand - you have earned the safety.

 

 

So you want to penalize shooters for putting their pistols away with ten empties in them? Even with two under their hammer? 

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1 hour ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

So you want to penalize shooters for putting their pistols away with ten empties in them? Even with two under their hammer? 

You and your logic!

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12 hours ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

If the shotgun is the last fired, when would there be another report to count on the timer? Take your time and clear your shotgun, before you pick up any other firearms....

That’s exactly what I was wondering. How would not shucking the last two rounds save any time?

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I've seen several reference to "...before the next gun is cocked"... that is NOT the case... it is before the next gun is fired. If you were shooting the shotgun and put it down with a empty hull in it, then pulled a pistol and cocked it.... you could still clear that hull from the shotgun if you can do it without taking a step...i.e. moving with the pistol cocked. Same for a rifle or any other scenario... when shooting from the same position this can happen easily...……… if detected.

 

As to the situation at hand. I do understand the rules that cover this situation, and I agree with many that it is confusing. IMO the easiest and best way to correct the situation was rejected long ago. That suggestion was to have all guns cleared on the stage.... like they do in most shooting sports. Since it takes too long to clear single action revolvers, I would suggest a modification to that, and just have all Long Guns cleared on the stage, then move to the ULT and clear the handguns. Any appropriate penalties would be applied at the time. I have always been in the camp that says an empty hull or case presents no safety hazard to anyone, but that is jmo. I also have some mixed feelings about the way things are handled when a shooter is called back to empty his gun or fire one more round. It has led to many T.O.s failing to help the shooter for fear of making a mistake. Not sure what is best... I called a shooter back at the State match a couple years ago when I only counted 9 shots instead of 10. He came back, and I was wrong.... he still finished the stage with a great time... but decided to take the reshoot. He screwed up the reshoot. He would have been the overall winner if he had not taken that reshoot. I've always felt bad about that..... Again, sorry Coyote Carson.

 

Snakebite

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4 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

So you want to penalize shooters for putting their pistols away with ten empties in them? Even with two under their hammer? 

Firstly - I said discarded.

A pistol holstered is not discarded.

Secondly - a shotgun or rifle is designed and operated to expel the casings immediately after firing; leaving casings in a long gun is contrary to proper operation. 

Leaving cases in a revolver is not.

 

Please don't twist my words attempting to make a point that no one was arguing.

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2 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

That’s exactly what I was wondering. How would not shucking the last two rounds save any time?

Shotgun isn't always last.

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

I have always been in the camp that says an empty hull or case presents no safety hazard to anyone

 

I absolutely second that, but...

 

1.  ...so does sweeping somebody with an empty gun, technically safe and nonhazardous. Of course, it's a no go an much worse than an empty hull, but just to get the picture...

 

2. There are situations where you cannot tell without any doubt if it is any empty shell or a live round in the chamber of an SxS. If you have an odd number of shotgun targets or have to make up a knock down I've watched different approaches:

- Some shooters load just one and shoot one,

- Some load two, shoot one and chuck the empty and the live

- Some load two and shoot one after the other (the second just into the berm)

- Some load two, pull both triggers and shoot both shells simultaneously

 

And therefore I am in team "chamber has to be empty". The TO just can see if the chamber is empty or not. He cannot see if  a remaining shell has been fired or not.

 

In my opinion, in every shooting sport discipline (which unfortunately has to be enforced by penalties) has to start much earlier than when it could get hazardous. And people who struggle with minor rules are more likely to violate major rules.

 

Just my thoughts,

Equanimous

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Just like if a long gun closes, check it when done. Empty - no call, round in gun - penalty.

Hull is spent - no call, hull is loaded round - penalty.

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Shotgun isn't always last.

I hadn't even thought of that. I was thinking along the lines of the op situation, not in other sequences.

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6 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

I hadn't even thought of that. I was thinking along the lines of the op situation, not in other sequences.

Yeah, Rainmaker may flame me, but if you didn't have to shuck the last two shells I doubt that I would even open my shotgun.   I would lay it down and save a quarter of a second.

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15 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Yeah, Rainmaker may flame me, but if you didn't have to shuck the last two shells I doubt that I would even open my shotgun.   I would lay it down and save a quarter of a second.

That's a great idea...but a closed action on empties is it's own penalty.

 

But you know that...shucks...no pun intended...

 

Phantom

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