Open top smith?

[July Smith]

I know this has come up before, but I can't seem to find it... 

 

Through Gunbroker I recently acquired a beautiful consecutive set of NIB (new in box) Cimarron 1860 Richard-Mason Army revolvers in 44colt.  The sell stated they came with action jobs from Cimarron and they felt super smooth. 

 

Unfortunately, I got to try them out this weekend and found out neither run reliably.  Both have serious binding issues.  They seem to have a slight bit of end-shake, meaning the cylinder slides forward and backward and the firing pins seem really sharp.  Does that sound right?  I only put 5 rds through each gun and then decided to stop, they shoot accurately and the sights are regulated to point of aim but they simply do not work right.  

 

Are these common problems with open top conversions?  Who do you all recommend for gunsmith work on open top revolvers?   

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Check for pierced primers ,,, some firing pins are both to long and too pointed from the factory ....

If you are unsure in trying to shorten and round the pins down , buy new pins from VTI ... the hardened after-market ones they sell ...

And yes this is a fairly common problem with a easy fix ... One that you may not see unless you fire the guns ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[July Smith]

17 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Check for pierced primers ,,, some firing pins are both to long and too pointed from the factory ....

If you are unsure in trying to shorten and round the pins down , buy new pins from VTI ... the hardened after-market ones they sell ...

And yes this is a fairly common problem with a easy fix ... One that you may not see unless you fire the guns ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

6

No pierced primers, at least not in the 10rds I fired.  Thanks for the tip.  Do you have a link?  The exploded parts diagram on VTI's website lists it as part number 98, but the part for sale seems to be just a Uberti factory replacement part.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Sometimes the pin goes in and binds with-out Piercing the primer , does the hammer seem harder to cock with live ammo being fired ???

Are your loads too light causing Primmer Set-back ???

 

Are you new to shooting Open-Top pistols ???

 

Jabez Cowboy

[July Smith]

11 minutes ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

Sometimes the pin goes in and binds with-out Piercing the primer , does the hammer seem harder to cock with live ammo being fired ???

Are your loads too light causing Primmer Set-back ???

 

Are you new to shooting Open-Top pistols ???

 

Jabez Cowboy

Yes, the hammer is harder to cock after firing each shot.  The gun cycles fine when empty. 

 

My load is a slightly compressed charge of Goex 3fg with a 200gr bullet.  Not a mouse fart.

 

The only other open tops I have shot are cap and balls.  These are my first cartridge conversions.

[Lead Monger]

Try a 44 Russian case in that revolver. You may find the Russian size rim fits better and does not allow the primers to drag on the recoil shield. I have a handled a pare of 44 Colt conversions with the problem you describe. They worked flawlessly using the Russian case. Also found this pair of revolvers would not accept a 44 special length case.

[July Smith]

4 hours ago, Lead Monger said:

Try a 44 Russian case in that revolver. You may find the Russian size rim fits better and does not allow the primers to drag on the recoil shield. I have a handled a pare of 44 Colt conversions with the problem you describe. They worked flawlessly using the Russian case. Also found this pair of revolvers would not accept a 44 special length case.

Is the 44 Russian the same rim size as the 44 Special? 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

36 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Is the 44 Russian the same rim size as the 44 Special? 

 

Yes.

[Lead Monger]

Yes the rim is the same. The Russian case is shorter than the Special. The rim of the Colt cartridge is supposed to be smaller in diameter but the Uberti's I handled would accept the Smith and Wesson rim size without problem.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Howdy ;

I shoot Uberti Open-Tops in FCD , they are in .44 Spl. ( marked  .44 Colt .44 Special ) with Navy Grips  I had the same problem with one of my Open-Tops  from the factory ....

Changed the Firing Pin end of problem ,,,, get a couple of spares while you are at it ...

I use my guns with full loads of Goex 3F drop-tubed in and compressed with either a 240 or 220 gr. Soft cast bullet ....

I have 4 personal use Open-Tops ( not counting Cap & Ball guns ) and have worked on several others .....  Since I have been shooting mine and showing "Buck & Boom" off to all who will look they have been getting way more common up here ....

 

When Folks see they can run trouble free and how they point ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and the Style Points .......

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Cemetery]

Hard to cock after starting to shoot?  Binding?

 

My experience says it's either 1) cylinder/barrel gap clearance, or/and 2) lack of loob on the arbor.  I shoot 35g/40g of real black.

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

Do you see a small dimple in the recoil shield around the firing pin hole?  Do you see a slight bulge in the primer of the fired cases?

[July Smith]

2 hours ago, Cemetery said:

Hard to cock after starting to shoot?  Binding?

 

My experience says it's either 1) cylinder/barrel gap clearance, or/and 2) lack of loob on the arbor.  I shoot 35g/40g of real black.

Plenty of lube on the arbor.  There is some end-shake but I have not measured the gap yet.

 

59 minutes ago, The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 said:

Do you see a small dimple in the recoil shield around the firing pin hole?  Do you see a slight bulge in the primer of the fired cases?

I did not notice a dimple on the recoil shield but will look again this evening.  I did notice a slight high spot on the primers around the area where the firing pin hits.

[Lead Monger]

While you are inspecting your revolvers here is a simple check that may solve this question. 

With the revolver empty and at full cock, slip a feeler gauge or stack of gauges between the recoil shield and cylinder face. Roughly this is head space. If it is upwards of .060" or more the revolver is set up for the Smith and Wesson rim thickness and the Colt cartridge will be troublesome. If the measurement is in the 0.050" neaborhood the Colt case should work and the S&W rim will not fit between the recoil shield and cylinder face. 

Very easy to check.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

Unlike the SAA, these guns don't use a bushing in the recoil shield where the firing pin comes through. The steel is rather soft and sometimes rather thin as well allowing the hole to enlarge or metal to be moved towards the cylinder especially if dryfired.  With repeated use you can also experience the primers peening a primer size dent in the recoil shield. The "raised area" you describe around the firing pin mark is actually the primer flowing back into the hole around the firing pin.  My opentops developed the peening problem after extensive use and would start to bind as the primer extruded into the dent in the recoil shield.  Lassiter fixed them by welding up the problem area with a hard weld then resurfacing the weld and recutting the hole for the firing pin.  I've heard of other gunsmiths milling a hole and installing a bushing ala the Single Action Army but I don't know who may still do that.

 

I had no further problems after Lassiter fixed them. That was years ago and I don't remember what he charged but it was reasonable.

 

These are not guns that should be dryfired.

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

Happy Trails from the Smith Shop in RI is a good smith on open tops too.

He also has hardened steel firing pins.

[Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368]

3 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Happy Trails from the Smith Shop in RI is a good smith on open tops too.

He also has hardened steel firing pins.

I would also recommend Hap as he over the years has done two conversions and two OT action tunes for me,however last I spoke with Hap he wasn't taking on new work/customers,that was my hesitancy in doing so. Hap is the man.

     Adios   Sgt. Jake

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

For those of you talking about replacing firing pins, hardening firing pins, etc., July has Richards-Mason conversions, not  '71-72 Opentops.  The FP's are very different and never had the "long bendy points" problem of the early Opentops.  Actually, Uberti changed to better FP's on those some years ago, anyway.  Now the FP's on the R-M's will not bend, but they do tend to be sharp and primer piercers with some primers, but just dulling the point works for that.  (And no, you don't want to dry fire these either)

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

I tried the bushing method by having a gunsmith put Colt bushings in the pistol.  Fixed it for a thousand rounds  but the problem started again even with the bushings.  I sold them off to pards that knew the problem I had and had their own solution.

 

I mostly used .44 Russian with a 205 gr and a case of BP in the open-tops, I also used some .44 Colt cases that came with the pistols.  Both loads worked fine other than the cratering problem.     Only had pierced primers when the crater in the recoil shield got really deep.  I wonder if using Federal primers exacerbated the problem.

[Tully Mars]

My 51' Richard Masson's needed the arbor fit corrected in order to fix the binding issue. Look for Larson Pettifogger's article in regards to making the Colt open tops run. In them you'll find detailed instructions as to checking the arbor fit. It's been a common problem with Uberti open tops, I don't believe they've corrected it.

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Uberti_Open_Top_Revolvers_Part_3.pdf

Tullly

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE to Tully Mars.

 

BEFORE you do anything else, or have anyone do ANYTHING else, Have the Barrel to Arbor fit inspected and FIX'd.  The chances your barrel to arbor fit is correct is for practical purposes ..... ZERO.  Every time you take the guns apart to clean and put them back together, you have a different gun.  CAREFULLY read the information provided by Pettifogger in the Open Range article.  

[Outrider, SASS #72622]

On 9/25/2017 at 9:19 AM, July Smith said:

I know this has come up before, but I can't seem to find it... 

 

I recently picked up a beautiful consecutive set of NIB (new in box) Cimarron 1860 Richard-Mason Army revolvers in 44colt.  They came with action jobs from Cimarron and they felt super smooth. 

 

Unfortunately, I got to try them out this weekend and found out neither run reliably.  Both have serious binding issues.  They seem to have a slight bit of end-shake, meaning the cylinder slides forwards and backwards and the firing pins are really sharp.  They actually seem to be binding around the area of the primer.  Does that sound right?  The firing pin seems to strike the primer and create a bur or high spot that drags on the recoil shield.  I only put 5 rds through each gun and then decided to stop, they shoot accurately and the sights are regulated to point of aim but they simply do not work right.  

 

Are these common problems with open top conversions?  Who do you all recommend for gunsmith work on open top revolvers?   

I would contact Cimarron first.  I mean, if you paid extra for the action job, they should make it right!

If they can't or won't make it right, Stumpman will be at the Comin' at Cha this weekend.  He does a lot of open tops.

[July Smith]

5 minutes ago, Outrider, SASS #72622 said:

I would contact Cimarron first.  I mean, if you paid extra for the action job, they should make it right!

I bought the pair through an individual on gunbroker.  The seller claimed the pair was new in the box, and that the action jobs were performed by Cimarron.  The guns certainly looked very nice and like new.  The actions also really feel slick with light crisp triggers. 

 

A phone conversation with Joe (A.D. Texaz) at Cimarron Firearms lead me to believe I might have set up the barrel wedges improperly.  It would be humbling to find out that after all this it was simply my own lack of experience with these particular firearms that lead to the binding issues.  I have followed Joe's advice and checked the barrel/cylinder gap.  It would appear I may have had the wedges pushed in too tight.  When the rain lets up I will have to retest the pair at the range.

[Outrider, SASS #72622]

Sounds good buddy.  Heck, we have all made those kinda mistakes.  I hope it works for you.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

July, while the wedge pushed in too far certainly could be the issue, the info referenced above about the arbor fit is still relevant.  If the arbor length is fitted properly, it makes it difficult to insert the wedge too far.  An easy way to sort of verify this, as well as a simple/dirty fix, is to do something Coffinmaker has advised before and drop a #10 stainless split washer down the arbor hole in the barrel.  If the barrel can still be installed snug to the frame and wedge installed, then try shooting that way.  If there is a gap between frame and barrel with the washer installed, then you would need a smaller spacer in there.  I shot my '51 conversions for years without doing this, but the wedges started getting a little loose.  I dropped the washer down the arbor hole and it snugged things back up.  My newest Type II conversion has less of a gap in front of the arbor and I had to hunt around for a very thin flat washer for that one as it wouldn't go back together all the way with the split washer in there.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

The reason some Ham Hock at Cimarron told you the barrel wedges may have been set up improperly is because the barrel to arbor fit is not correct and when the wedge is snugged up, it over tightens the barrel to the point is binds the cylinder face.  The wedge CANNOT be properly set until the barrel to arbor fit is correct.  You should not have to "fiddle" with the wedge every time you put the gun together.  Just pop it in and go.

 

Allow me to refer you back to my prior post.  FIX the barrel to arbor fit.  Then adjust the wedge for fit.

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

Just to be clear, I believe July is talking about binding at the back end of the cylinder

[Lead Monger]

That was the impression I had too. If the wedges are too tight they will drag and bind before they ever get shot. 

Question : When you shoot them and they bind up or drag, do they free up when you remove the cartridges?