CB97 Shotgun Issue

[Ace Hanlon]

On several occasions the following has happened:  after loading a round and closing the action into battery the trigger is locked up and the hammer will not fall.  The slide is locked as it should be and will not move.  I can push the release button and eject the live round and continue without a problem.  Does anyone have any idea what the problem might be which would cause this situation several time a year?  Thanks 

[Sgt. Saywut]

Following this with great interest as a CB97 is second on my to-get list!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Reloads or factory ammo?

When was the last time you did a 'deep-cleaning' of the action?

Make sure that the action slide lock spring #60 on pg 5, is not broken or missing.

http://stevespages.com/pdf/cimarron_1897.pdf

OLG

[Ace Hanlon]

9 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Reloads or factory ammo?

When was the last time you did a 'deep-cleaning' of the action?

Make sure that the action slide lock spring #60 on pg 5, is not broken or missing.

http://stevespages.com/pdf/cimarron_1897.pdf

OLG

Reloads today and complete cleaning a month ago.  Will check the spring tomorrow.  Thanks

[Attica Jack #23953]

Make sure you really rack if forward hard.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 minutes ago, Ace Hanlon said:

Reloads today and complete cleaning a month ago.  Will check the spring tomorrow.  Thanks

Check it with factory ammo before doing anything else.

You might not have the sizing die set to 'pinch' the rim down enough.

Don't baby-it when you rack it! 

OLG

[Warhorse]

Have you considered the possibility that your reloads have a slightly enlarged brass base? If so, the round will seem to chamber but won't really quite make it all the way.

 

I had exactly that problem with my CB97 and it drove me crazy until a gunsmith friend of mine told me about that problem which was, in fact, the case.

 

I purchased a MEC Super Sizer that I now use on all my empty cases before reloading them and that problem has gone away permanently. This MEC device resized the metal base of the shell back to factory specs with very little effort. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

 

Warhorse

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

To add-The tin metal used in many cases to day has more spring back when sizing, that brass case heads do.

I had to make a custom size ring for my 40+ year old Mec 600jr press because of this.

Ace-Measure the OD and rim thickness of your casehead on the reloads, and compare it to factory.

OLG

[Eyesa Horg]

My CB97 wouldn't eject at all when new, after sending back for repair it now ejects them on your foot or maybe a foot to the right, not the 10 feet advertised and takes a nick out of the edge of the brass.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

12 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

My CB97 wouldn't eject at all when new, after sending back for repair it now ejects them on your foot or maybe a foot to the right, not the 10 feet advertised and takes a nick out of the edge of the brass.

 

Eyesa,

Its sad when you have to return a 'high quality' shotgun as advertised like the CB 97's.   Its REALLY SAD when its sent back to you and still not functioning as advertised. 

I have owned 3 of them and sold one.  But my present 2 were o.k. from the box.   My 97 guru, Curly Bill Kelly, went inside both of them and fixed up a couple rough spots and now they are fast and very reliable.

 

I hope you can get yours fixed.

 

..........Widder

 

[Snake-eye, SASS#45097]

When I got mine early this year, it would not eject unless I slammed the forearm as hard as I could and it took chunks of brass with it. The left extractor had a sharp edge to it and the new design spring was very stiff which both together caused the problem. I ordered a replacement spring and left extractor. The extractor got polished and rounded off slightly. Now ejects well and puts the hulls in a pile about 4 feet off. The brass is not damaged either. I did buy it used although it looked as if it was fired very little, probably because of the ejection issues. Very low serial no. in the high 400 series. Your results may vary.

Snake eye

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

I have a Pedersoli "Wyatt Earp" as well as a Chaparral '97, both of which hung up shells and would not allow ejection or sometimes, a hard pull, after firing, even after the chambers were honed and polished.

In my guns, I found that shells other than Winchester AA 128 and AA 129 would not eject, when first fired and hot.

It appears the metal, on some shells, expands more than traditional brass.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

If this is the coil spring type left side extractor like the CB97 use. The OEM spring is the issue, most times.

Had a issue with mine. Replaced the spring with one I had in my misc spring box, and the issue went away.

OLG

[G W Wade]

If you can duplicate the  "lockdown". Try pushing forward on the end of the bolt. See if that pushs it in the rest of the way.  Slows things down, so you can see what happens.      GW

[Eyesa Horg]

9 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

 

Eyesa,

Its sad when you have to return a 'high quality' shotgun as advertised like the CB 97's.   Its REALLY SAD when its sent back to you and still not functioning as advertised. 

I have owned 3 of them and sold one.  But my present 2 were o.k. from the box.   My 97 guru, Curly Bill Kelly, went inside both of them and fixed up a couple rough spots and now they are fast and very reliable.

 

I hope you can get yours fixed.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Widder,

At least it's usable now. Ellie's been shootin' it, it's pretty smooth--about like a used Norinco I found, but still only ejects a foot or so. Don't want to send it back again as it got scratches on the reciever by the mag. screw and the return packing was so poor it was sticking out of the box and the muzzle got dinged. I'll tell 'ya aboput it next time we chat.

 

Eyesa

[Eyesa Horg]

9 hours ago, Snake-eye, SASS#45097 said:

When I got mine early this year, it would not eject unless I slammed the forearm as hard as I could and it took chunks of brass with it. The left extractor had a sharp edge to it and the new design spring was very stiff which both together caused the problem. I ordered a replacement spring and left extractor. The extractor got polished and rounded off slightly. Now ejects well and puts the hulls in a pile about 4 feet off. The brass is not damaged either. I did buy it used although it looked as if it was fired very little, probably because of the ejection issues. Very low serial no. in the high 400 series. Your results may vary.

Snake eye

Same issue as mine, the nick isn't so bad anymore, but still not ejecting far. B4 repair it was taking a chunk out of the hull. It appears that all was done originally was for the smith to sign his name on the bolt and not much better now. But can't see the expense of sending it back again and waiting for more scratches on it. Mine is in the low 100's series.

[CodyMaverick]

On 9/23/2017 at 9:19 PM, Ace Hanlon said:

On several occasions the following has happened:  after loading a round and closing the action into battery the trigger is locked up and the hammer will not fall.  The slide is locked as it should be and will not move.  I can push the release button and eject the live round and continue without a problem.  Does anyone have any idea what the problem might be which would cause this situation several time a year?  Thanks 

 

When you say the trigger is "locked up", is the trigger forward as in ready to be pulled or is it still in the full back position.  If it is in the full back position, it could be the "trigger stop" screw (lack of the proper term right now) needs to be adjusted.

To get to this screw you have to remove the buttstock and you'll find it in the back of the trigger guard.  The most important part of this adjustment is that it does not allow the trigger to be reset until the carrier is well behind the bolt to prevent the action from opening when fired.  If it is adjusted too far the other way then the action will be closed as far as you can with the slide and the trigger will not be set.

 

If you close the action very slowly and incrementally while watching the trigger and the position of the carrier you should see the trigger move forward in to firing position with about a good 1/8" of upward travel left before the carrier is fully up (closed). You might have to do this repeatedly to witness the exact point where the trigger moves forward.

 

Good luck

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Would like to hear back from the OP as to what he has learned.

OLG

[Ace Hanlon]

First of all my CB97 has never had any problems with ejecting spent hulls from the action! As a matter of fact the spent hulls go out of the action a good 4 to 5 feet.

Second I spent several hours yesterday checking 500+ double AA reloads through my Unique 12 gauge case checking gauge which checks the entire hull and case head. A list of conditions I found are:

1. Found some rounds were very tight on the plastic walls going into the gauge

2. Found some rounds would hang up when the brass part of the hull was going into the gauge

3. Found some rounds where the brass wall of the round would fit into the checking gauge but the case head would not fully seat into the recessed area of the case gauge.

4. Some rounds did not display any of the above potential problems.

 

I have removed all rounds which are described in 1 through 3 above and will used them only for practice.  For annual and above matches I always use new shot shells but will start checking  them as well.

 

CodyMaverick I have performed the check which you described and found than my trigger is setting when there is an estimated 1/8" more upward movement of the carrier into the bolt.  

 

I believe my problems are associated with my reloads and/or operator error.  Sometimes I get a little tentative when operating the slide action of my 97's.

 

I would be interested in hearing from others about the brass rim of the shot shell not fitting into the recessed area of the case gauge.  It appears they have flatten out some what.  By the way I only reload my hulls once.

 

Thanks to all who have responded to my post.  I have learned something new.  Ace

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I reload my hulls till the mouth folds develop bad splits, and affects the crimp.

Measure the rim thickness, and dia of some factory ammo and go from there to set you size die.

IF your case rim is getting larger on OD, back your size die off a turn or 2.

Work your press without a shell in place, and make sure you have at most 1/16"-3/32" gap under your size die.

I use a 42+ year old MEC 600jr press.

OLG

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

Ace,

 

The case checker is a great idea.  My CB97 gave me similar problems to yours and also had ejection issues.  Widder's 97 expert is also my guy (Curly Bill Kelly).  He helped cure both problems.  I check all my hulls empty and loaded.  If they don't fit either way, they don't get used in a match.  I check the shells fully open before ever loading them because they can be an issue when I shoot my SKB double which doesn't have an ejector like a 97.

 

Like you, I found that once fired AAs are very inconsistent.  The wife and I are in the process of switching over to only using Remington STS when reloading.  We have a couple thousand AAs.  Luckily my wife's original 1906 D model 97 will "eat" about anything.  She's shooting the AA hulls and leaving the empties on the unloading table for anyone who wants them.  Eventually, it will only be STSs for us.

 

If you are still have problems getting your gun running the way you want, please contact Widder or me and we will get you Curly Bill's contact information.  He understands the CB97s very well and has "cured" a number of them that were sent back for warranty repairs and still wouldn't run correctly.

 

Keep us updated on your progress.  

[Lazy Eeyour]

Next time it happens make sure the bolt went all the way forward. One of my 97 hangs if not well oiled. Just the bolt forward with my thumb and it works as expected.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Lazy Eeyour said:

Next time it happens make sure the bolt went all the way forward. One of my 97 hangs if not well oiled. Just the bolt forward with my thumb and it works as expected.

That is usually a worn action slide hook, #20 on page 5.

http://stevespages.com/pdf/cimarron_1897.pdf

 

OLG

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Ace-have you try'd any factory ammo yet? You can buy 1bx pretty cheap at Wal-Mart. 

I'll bet the issue goes away with factory. 

OLG

[Ace Hanlon]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Ace-have you try'd any factory ammo yet? You can buy 1bx pretty cheap at Wal-Mart. 

I'll bet the issue goes away with factory. 

OLG

I always use factory at major shoots and never have a problem which makes me think there is nothing wrong with the CB97.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just now, Ace Hanlon said:

I always use factory at major shoots and never have a problem which makes me think there is nothing wrong with the CB97.

 

Try this-

Take 10 reloaded shells and ck case rim thickness and case rim dia. along with the metal base dia. Average it out for all 3 measurements.

Now do the same with factory.

How much 'bigger' are the reloads, and where?

OLG

[Ace Hanlon]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Try this-

Take 10 reloaded shells and ck case rim thickness and case rim dia. along with the metal base dia. Average it out for all 3 measurements.

Now do the same with factory.

How much 'bigger' are the reloads, and where?

OLG

Not really sure how you would measure case rim thickness because of the curved radius of the bottom edge.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Put the side of the caliper's 'jaw' against the body of the shell case, and measure the rim thickness of each shell in at least 3 places.

OLG